The foundation of all salvation.

Josheb

Well-known member
As Carolgeen stated

Acts 16:34 (KJV 1900) — 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

and you still ignore

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
I do not ignore it at all.

I simply do not repeat already stated content ad nauseam, especially when already agreed upon. Neither do I collaborate with posters who constantly change the topic, or those personally attacking others, and most definitely those denying the plain facts of scripture, which in this case is the simple fact Acts 16:31 (nor vs. 34) does not state faith precedes regeneration, as was claimed. Neither do I collaborate with those who constantly appeal to fallacy. I'm still waiting for an answer to the original question. You've had plenty of opportunity and refuse. Until I receive an answer there'll be no additional replies from me. If you wanted to discuss anything else you'd show parity and answer the question asked.





Where does scripture ever explicitly assign any causal relationship between the unregenerate's volition and his own salvation?
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Proof-texting Philemon 1:14...
You failed to show context contrary to anything I stated

(KJV) But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.......................

What is the context? Repeating the verse does not help. What is Paul dealing with?

The verse shows all you need to know

free will and necessity are contrary to one another

context cannot change that

So you offer no context. And they are not contrary to one another. If something is voluntary then its not a necessity. Which is the point of the text. You know if you actually read it.

You do not need context to see freewill and necessity are contrary to one another

voluntary is a synonym for free will
They are not contrary and with the context you have shown nothing as ususal.

Pauls point is you can give above and beyond what is required freely. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT
The problem, aside from the fact a single verse was removed from its context and then the relevance of the context was denied is this:


Philemon was an already regenerate believer in Christ and the choice Paul is asking him to make has absolutely nothing to do with salvation from sin. Paul is asking Philemon about Onesimus. Here's what the verse says when the rest of the paragraph is included...

Philemon 1:10-16
I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment, who formerly was useless to you, but now is useful both to you and to me. I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.


In context
, it reads as follows....

I, Paul, an already regenerate believer in Jesus, appeal to you, Philemon, an already regenerate believer in Jesus, for my child Onesimus who is now a regenerate believer in Jesus because I have begotten him while I was imprisoned. Onesimus was formerly useless to you, but now he is useful to both you and me. I have sent him back to you in person, that is sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent as an already-regenerate believer in Jesus I did not want to do anything [such as keeping Onesimus from you] , so that you already regenerate goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own already regenerate free will. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever.......

None of the people in this passage are unregenerate non-believers.

The choice being made is not about choosing Jesus, for choosing to be saved. Reformedguy was correct in asking about the context of the verse and it is wrong to deny it. It is also bad practice to take verses written about the regenerate and apply them to the unregenerate as if the two are identical in all ways.

They are not.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Proof-texting Philemon 1:14...

The problem, aside from the fact a single verse was removed from its context and then the relevance of the context was denied is this:


Philemon was an already regenerate believer in Christ and the choice Paul is asking him to make has absolutely nothing to do with salvation from sin. Paul is asking Philemon about Onesimus. Here's what the verse says when the rest of the paragraph is included...

Philemon 1:10-16
I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment, who formerly was useless to you, but now is useful both to you and to me. I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.


In context
, it reads as follows....

I, Paul, an already regenerate believer in Jesus, appeal to you, Philemon, an already regenerate believer in Jesus, for my child Onesimus who is now a regenerate believer in Jesus because I have begotten him while I was imprisoned. Onesimus was formerly useless to you, but now he is useful to both you and me. I have sent him back to you in person, that is sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent as an already-regenerate believer in Jesus I did not want to do anything [such as keeping Onesimus from you] , so that you already regenerate goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own already regenerate free will. For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever.......

None of the people in this passage are unregenerate non-believers.

The choice being made is not about choosing Jesus, for choosing to be saved. Reformedguy was correct in asking about the context of the verse and it is wrong to deny it. It is also bad practice to take verses written about the regenerate and apply them to the unregenerate as if the two are identical in all ways.

They are not.
Not if the question concerns free will which by their theology most Calvinist's really reject

So are you agreeing believers have free will?
 

fltom

Well-known member
I do not ignore it at all.

I simply do not repeat already stated content ad nauseam, especially when already agreed upon. Neither do I collaborate with posters who constantly change the topic, or those personally attacking others, and most definitely those denying the plain facts of scripture, which in this case is the simple fact Acts 16:31 (nor vs. 34) does not state faith precedes regeneration, as was claimed. Neither do I collaborate with those who constantly appeal to fallacy. I'm still waiting for an answer to the original question. You've had plenty of opportunity and refuse. Until I receive an answer there'll be no additional replies from me. If you wanted to discuss anything else you'd show parity and answer the question asked.





Where does scripture ever explicitly assign any causal relationship between the unregenerate's volition and his own salvation?
Of course it does

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

for we know regeneration is mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



you merely offer denial

multitudes of verses show faith precedes regeneration you have just ignored

as does

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

for regeneration makes alive as per (note all agree the verses below speak of regeneration)

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

but you never address these and simply deny all evidence

oh, btw I asked you previously, but you never replied to it

Can youn place your faith in another without an act of the will

You have merely framed your argument to look for specific words but do not examine context to see if the concept rather than the actual, words are there

It's a major failing you have adopted

go
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
The gospel is simple and many over complicate faith is Christ . The gospel is not systematic theology . It was proclaimed by simple unlearned fishermen to the sick in need of a physician. It was the Pharisees in their day that hated it and no different today .
Yes those pharisees are like another group today.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Of course it does

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

for we know regeneration is mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



you merely offer denial

multitudes of verses show faith precedes regeneration you have just ignored

as does

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

for regeneration makes alive as per (note all agree the verses below speak of regeneration)

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

but you never address these and simply deny all evidence

oh, btw I asked you previously, but you never replied to it

Can youn place your faith in another without an act of the will

You have merely framed your argument to look for specific words but do not examine context to see if the concept rather than the actual, words are there

It's a major failing you have adopted
No rebuttal in my absence?
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Guess no one has a real rebuttal to the fact faith precedes regeneration - being made alive
All I can do is really agree... saving faith precedes regeneration, as the Holy Spirit responds to persons’ exercising faith by regenerating them.

As Olson explains, “humans are dead in their trespasses and sins until the prevenient grace of God awakens and enables them to exercise a good will toward God in repentance and faith” (Olson, Arminian Theology, 159).

But this grace is resistible, which accounts for some people choosing to believe in Christ and other people choosing not to.
 

fltom

Well-known member
All I can do is really agree... saving faith precedes regeneration, as the Holy Spirit responds to persons’ exercising faith by regenerating them.

As Olson explains, “humans are dead in their trespasses and sins until the prevenient grace of God awakens and enables them to exercise a good will toward God in repentance and faith” (Olson, Arminian Theology, 159).

But this grace is resistible, which accounts for some people choosing to believe in Christ and other people choosing not to.
Some Arminian hold man is born in a state of prevenient grace

The fact is that it really does not matter which view of “original sin” one holds. Did Adam’s sin bring only physical death upon us? Or did it also bring spiritual depravity—partial or total? Did it also make us guilty sinners, condemned to eternal punishment in hell? In the final analysis it does not matter what content anyone feels compelled to pour into the concept of “original sin,” because Paul’s main point is this: whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ. Make the Adamic legacy as dire as you want: physical death, total depravity, genuine guilt, and condemnation to hell. The whole point of the passage is that Christ’s “one act of righteousness” (5:18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, canceled, and counteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam. All the potential spiritual consequences of Adam’s sin are intercepted even before they can be applied. The only consequence that actually takes effect is physical death, and it is countered with the promise of resurrection to eternal life.
This understanding of 5:12–19 has been clearly understood at least since the Reformation, when it was taught by Anabaptist writers. Those within the Wesleyan tradition also generally hold this understanding.4 This principle has been most clearly stated in earlier Restoration Movement writings.
Jack Cottrell on Rom 5
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
All I can do is really agree... saving faith precedes regeneration, as the Holy Spirit responds to persons’ exercising faith by regenerating them.

As Olson explains, “humans are dead in their trespasses and sins until the prevenient grace of God awakens and enables them to exercise a good will toward God in repentance and faith” (Olson, Arminian Theology, 159).

But this grace is resistible, which accounts for some people choosing to believe in Christ and other people choosing not to.
All this coming from someone having the username “Predestined”.
 

David1701

Well-known member
All I can do is really agree... saving faith precedes regeneration, as the Holy Spirit responds to persons’ exercising faith by regenerating them.

As Olson explains, “humans are dead in their trespasses and sins until the prevenient grace of God awakens and enables them to exercise a good will toward God in repentance and faith” (Olson, Arminian Theology, 159).

But this grace is resistible, which accounts for some people choosing to believe in Christ and other people choosing not to.
Where does the Bible (not Olson) say that God's prevenient grace awakens and enables people to exercise good will towards God, in repentance and faith? I won't hold my breath...

Where the Bible say that believing in Christ is caused by sinful man's choice? I won't hold my breath...
 

fltom

Well-known member
It’s hard to goad against the pricks as the Bible teaches . Breaking them down with the truth which cannot be thwarted . On Christ the solid Rock we stand all other ground is sinking sand . We have a firm foundation that cannot be shaken .
It seems Calvinists can only offer denial of those scriptures
 
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