Manfred
Well-known member
You chose that God should give you revelation of the truth?
The foundation of all salvation.
- Thread starter Carbon
- Start date
Not sure what you are meaning.
prevene
prēˈvēn
TRANSITIVE VERB
-ed/-ing/-s
- forestall, prevent
- to come before : precede
Not answering for Kampioen ....
However, seems to me the "revelation of truth"; for many, is they are as nothing.
And they call that god?
How does that work?
T
TomFL
Guest
Prevene as he is using it means to go before
The idea is before one can reverence God grace must have preceded it
I can ask for revelation of the truth with what little I know. I can accept to follow it or not.
Do you agree with that?
Not really an anti-Calvinist. .
But this whole man is nothing propagation is just a tad problematic.
T
TomFL
Guest
So you are agreeing with pre vene in somewhat of a Calvinistic manner.
and the corollary ..... concerning man NOT respond is "death and destruction"?
bd
Manfred
Well-known member
Not at all what I asked you.
Did you choose that God should give you revelation of the truth?
Did you choose that God should give you revelation? Did God choose to reveal Himself to you?
9 But, as it is written,
What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him— (1Cor 2)
What is ridiculous, is your claim that somehow your eye saw, and your ear heard, and your heart imagined, and that you loved Him- just a little bit so you chose to ask....
When did you love Him? Was it before He revealed Himself to you, or after? Did you submit your will to Him, or did He submit to your will?
T
TomFL
Guest
It not just Calvinists
God gives general revelation.
Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I would say there is sufficient general revelation where we can libertatianly seek for more. Then the Lord will send a missionary or something to tell us the gospel.
No. But we can chose to ask for more.
Yes
I never said I originally loved God. But there is general limited revelation as Scripture says.
After the hearing of the gospel.
I submitted my will to Him. God answering our prayer is His own prerogative.
Nothing you say disproves libertarian free choice.
Last edited:
Manfred
Well-known member
27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
You choosing to seek God does not come from God but from your self will?
No one comes unless he is drawn is changed to everyone is drawn because they choose to be drawn.
So, thank you for admitting that you do not choose to be saved! Was it that difficult?
Good. So it is not your choice after all!
And? Expand on that in light of the verse I shared?
9 But, as it is written,
What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him— (1Cor 2)
So you leave out revelation and just prefer to say you heard the gospel.
My question was before revelation not before hearing. Lot's of people hear the gospel but it falls on deaf ears.
You teach they choose liberatiarianly not to believe don't you?
You say God chose to reveal Himself to you and claim that you were saved by your Libertarian Free will
Who ever said that you don't have free choice to choose anything in the flesh you want too! You are free, choose away.
Telling me that Spiritually before conversion you have a free choice that leads to salvation is nonsense and this conversation has proven it.
Your dead sinful spirit was unable to make any choices that would please God, and saying that it could is nothing more than wishful thinking. You can know there is a God through what you call limited general revelation, and the drawing of God will lead to revelation to those as He chooses.
Even after your spirit is made alive by the revelation that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and you placing your faith in Him as such, your spirit is placed in subjection to the will of God.
God is only pleased when you are obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Unless you want to argue that you have not placed your will in subjection to God?
And if in subjection, then no longer free, because when we sin, it is because we choose to and our will is not in subjection to the will of God.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Any choices you make apart from the leading of the Spirit glorifies self and not God.
T
TomFL
Guest
Seems he choses to reveal himself to all as
Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
as for the ability to respond
you might want to answer these
why did God harden men lest they believe
John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
If they had no ability to believe
similarly
Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Why does Jesus speak of men closing their eyes lest they should see and their heart growing hardened if they were born hardened to start with
if they had no ability to see and born already hardened
Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding
Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”
Why employ parables to hide truth from those who cannot know it ?
Why does the god of this world blind those who have no ability to see ?
2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Manfred
Well-known member
And you read this scripture to say:
I will reveal myself to every creature?
You should stop projecting your false teachings onto scripture.
Can you show how that scripture says He reveals Himself to every creature?
T
TomFL
Guest
Did you have a problem reading ?
Seems he choses to reveal himself to all as
Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
or is it that you do not understand preaching the gospel to all and discipling men entails revelation
Care to provide a verse where God instructs the gospel should not be preached to someone in the established new covenant era
Manfred
Well-known member
Wishful thinking.
Nothing in that verse suggest revelation to all who hear, because that would make the gospel powerless, and it is the Power of God after all and faith rests in the power of God and not your power of deduction.
T
TomFL
Guest
Newsflash whether one believes it or not it is still revelation
The gospel and the scripture are God's means revealing himself
you make God's means of no effect
aside from that your claim
"that would make the gospel powerless,"
is not rational
as was noted however you already have a powerless gospel which can effect nothing of itself
G
guest1
Guest
God reveals Himself in His Creation as per Romans 1. You left that one out.
T
TomFL
Guest
That is true and it is a revelation which is for all
Romans 1:18-22 (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
A more personal one however is found in the scriptures
Manfred
Well-known member
You want to say you can not believe something that is revealed as truth!
If God revealed to you that you will get hit by a bus at 3 PM on the corner of 1st and 7th and that you should not go there because it will result in paralysis an chronic pain for the next 30 years and then you will die and go to hell, but to rather go to His son who will lead you down a different road and you can avoid all the torment.
And as this is real revelation from God, you will find someone that will choose the bus and paralysis and pain and hell!
How absurd
Ask any atheist if they have received revelation that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, and have your picture taken with the idiot that says yes, he prefers to be tormented.
Your false teachings are that the natural man can indeed understand the Spiritual and that it is not spiritually discerned therefore not folly to him.
Why do you keep on misrepresenting the Bible?