The foundation of all salvation.

You want to say you can not believe something that is revealed as truth!

If God revealed to you that you will get hit by a bus at 3 PM on the corner of 1st and 7th and that you should not go there because it will result in paralysis an chronic pain for the next 30 years and then you will die and go to hell, but to rather go to His son who will lead you down a different road and you can avoid all the torment.

And as this is real revelation from God, you will find someone that will choose the bus and paralysis and pain and hell!
How absurd

Ask any atheist if they have received revelation that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, and have your picture taken with the idiot that says yes, he prefers to be tormented.

Your false teachings are that the natural man can indeed understand the Spiritual and that it is not spiritually discerned therefore not folly to him.
Why do you keep on misrepresenting the Bible?

Wake up. All of creation is a revelation of God's existence but men still deny it

Hello

This is scripture Your theology is not

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If men cannot understand scripture

why did God harden men lest they believe

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

If they had no ability to believe

similarly

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Why does Jesus speak of men closing their eyes lest they should see and their heart growing hardened if they were born hardened to start with

if they had no ability to see and born already hardened

Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

Why employ parables to hide truth from those who cannot know it ?

Why does the god of this world blind those who have no ability to see ?

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
Wake up. All of creation is a revelation of God's existence but men still deny it

Hello

This is scripture Your theology is not

And it presumes man is able to understand the gospel/scriptures
John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If men cannot understand scripture

why did God harden men lest they believe

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

If they had no ability to believe

similarly

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Why does Jesus speak of men closing their eyes lest they should see and their heart growing hardened if they were born hardened to start with

if they had no ability to see and born already hardened

Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

Why employ parables to hide truth from those who cannot know it ?

Why does the god of this world blind those who have no ability to see ?

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Manfred never addresses this
 
27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

You choosing to seek God does not come from God but from your self will?
No one comes unless he is drawn is changed to everyone is drawn because they choose to be drawn.

Everyone's attention is drawn by general revelation. But they libertarianly respond.

So, thank you for admitting that you do not choose to be saved! Was it that difficult?

You seem "predeterminately" high minded toward libertarians..

We do not choose to be saved but libertarianly ask. But it is God's prerogative to save, which He does.

Good. So it is not your choice after all!

It is not our choice for God to reveal Himself to us but our libertarian choice what to do about it.

And? Expand on that in light of the verse I shared?
9 But, as it is written,
What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him— (1Cor 2)

It is true. This is God's choice for us.

So you leave out revelation and just prefer to say you heard the gospel.

No. The gospel is itself a revelation as is general revelation.

My question was before revelation not before hearing. Lot's of people hear the gospel but it falls on deaf ears.
You teach they choose liberatiarianly not to believe don't you?

The gospel can't fall on deaf ears because it is itself revelation unless they already previously heard and refused or God just didn't tell them yet.

They don't reject belief or hearing at the initial monentary noticing the truth of it, but subsequently in libertarianly **refusing to follow** it.

You say God chose to reveal Himself to you and claim that you were saved by your Libertarian Free will

We don't transact our own salvation. But God chooses the conditions ie libertarian free will for which He will give it.

Who ever said that you don't have free choice to choose anything in the flesh you want too! You are free, choose away.

We are libertarianly free to choose the flesh or not. We are not just flesh but spirit also and there is revelation.

Telling me that Spiritually before conversion you have a free choice that leads to salvation is nonsense and this conversation has proven it.

Revelation, general or gospel, is the grace that enlightens us before conversion.

Your dead sinful spirit was unable to make any choices that would please God, and saying that it could is nothing more than wishful thinking. You can know there is a God through what you call limited general revelation, and the drawing of God will lead to revelation to those as He chooses.
Even after your spirit is made alive by the revelation that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and you placing your faith in Him as such, your spirit is placed in subjection to the will of God.
God is only pleased when you are obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

General revelation limitedly enlivens the spirit to a libertarian choice to seek more somewhere in their lives. For those limited few that seek, the Father via the gospel will give to the Son.

Unless you want to argue that you have not placed your will in subjection to God?
And if in subjection, then no longer free, because when we sin, it is because we choose to and our will is not in subjection to the will of God.

We libertarianly choose to be in subjection to God via revelation.

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Any choices you make apart from the leading of the Spirit glorifies self and not God.

Yes. All choice that leads sooner or later to salvation is led by the Spirit for which revelation is Spirit too but the Spirit doesn't make our libertarian choice for us.
 
Everyone's attention is drawn by general revelation. But they libertarianly respond.



You seem "predeterminately" high minded toward libertarians..

We do not choose to be saved but libertarianly ask. But it is God's prerogative to save, which He does.



It is not our choice for God to reveal Himself to us but our libertarian choice what to do about it.



It is true. This is God's choice for us.



No. The gospel is itself a revelation as is general revelation.



The gospel can't fall on deaf ears because it is itself revelation unless they already previously heard and refused or God just didn't tell them yet.

They don't reject belief or hearing at the initial monentary noticing the truth of it, but subsequently in libertarianly **refusing to follow** it.



We don't transact our own salvation. But God chooses the conditions ie libertarian free will for which He will give it.



We are libertarianly free to choose the flesh or not. We are not just flesh but spirit also and there is revelation.



Revelation, general or gospel, is the grace that enlightens us before conversion.



General revelation limitedly enlivens the spirit to a libertarian choice to seek more somewhere in their lives. For those limited few that seek, the Father via the gospel will give to the Son.



We libertarianly choose to be in subjection to God via revelation.



Yes. All choice that leads sooner or later to salvation is led by the Spirit for which revelation is Spirit too but the Spirit doesn't make our libertarian choice for us.

great ...... now got the libertarians saying never to be,
 
great ...... now got the libertarians saying never to be,
Natural Revelation leaves us without an excuse, so Natural Revelation is Totally Efficacious. Special Revelation isn't Totally Efficacious, or King Agrippa would have believed...

Why does the Will not thwart Natural Revelation but thwarts Special Revelation?
 
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The answer is because Natural Revelation is Soulishly Discerned, and we're Soulishly alive; and Special Revelation is Spiritually Discerned, but we never start out Spiritually Alive...

How can one start out if not to live?

But then not being?

But perchance maybe to live?

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die, to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache
and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns,
puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
 
The answer is because Natural Revelation is Soulishly Discerned, and we're Soulishly alive; but Special Revelation is Spiritually Discerned, and we never start out Spiritually Alive...

Then why are they trying to convert.

For if we are a soul ..... we are dead.

btw ..... mostly agreeing with you ....
 
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You think your Soul is dead?

I think the soul was something not me.

Granted the soul is so-post to be better.

But how can I can one be when the soul is better?

Never to live oh .... my soul.

My soul, my soul never to be ....

How can I live ..... and never be?

Never to live always to die .....

Never to live ..... was their reply.


Why bother.
 
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The answer is because Natural Revelation is Soulishly Discerned, and we're Soulishly alive; but Special Revelation is Spiritually Discerned, and we never start out Spiritually Alive...
Faith in Jesus makes us spiritually alive

John 20:31 (NASB77)
31 but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
Faith in Jesus makes us spiritually alive

John 20:31 (NASB77)
31 but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Temporally speaking, yes...
 
Faith in Jesus makes us spiritually alive

John 20:31 (NASB77)
31 but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Question Tom.
Who is this written to, believers or unbelievers?
 
Everyone's attention is drawn by general revelation. But they libertarianly respond.

Where does the Bible teach that they "libertarianly" respond?

We do not choose to be saved but libertarianly ask. But it is God's prerogative to save, which He does.

Where does the Bible teach that we "libertarianly ask"?

It is not our choice for God to reveal Himself to us but our libertarian choice what to do about it.

Where does the Bible teach "it is our libertarian choice what to do about it"?

We don't transact our own salvation. But God chooses the conditions ie libertarian free will for which He will give it.

Where does the Bible teach, "libertarian free will"?

We are libertarianly free to choose the flesh or not. We are not just flesh but spirit also and there is revelation.

Where does the Bible teach "we are libertarianly free to choose"?

We libertarianly choose to be in subjection to God via revelation.

Where does the Bible teach "we libertarianly choose to be in subjection to God"?
 
Believers already have life

John writes so his readers might believe and have life in Christ's name
I think I know where your coming from with your answer but I don’t think I’m completely understanding.

I agree believers already have life.

But you say his readers….
Do you consider his readers to be believers or an unbeliever who may read it?

Tom, it’s not a trick question, if you think it is, I don’t blame you because I have been unpleasant and not very nice to you at times. Though I know we disagree on certain doctrines, I believe because of your persistence you must genuinely love the Lord. And trying to teach what you believe is truth.

I’m just hoping to break this down a bit for your answer and why you believe such.
 
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Where does the Bible teach that they "libertarianly" respond?

Where does the Bible teach that we "libertarianly ask"?

Where does the Bible teach "it is our libertarian choice what to do about it"?

Where does the Bible teach, "libertarian free will"?

Where does the Bible teach "we are libertarianly free to choose"?

Where does the Bible teach "we libertarianly choose to be in subjection to God"?

The same place it says we are unconditionally predetermined to hell.

People naturally believe libertarianism. So we already believe it when we pick up a Bible. So as long as, all things considered, Scripture doesn't oppose it, we assume Scripture is libertarian.

But you must, all things considered, prove unconditional meticulous predetermination, which you can't.
 
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