The foundation of all salvation.

Carbon said:
Yes, one must have life (regenerated) to believe. And John teaches no such thing as you say, or at least not in the way your trying to teach it.
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That amounts to bald denial

John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Colossians 2:12-13 (ESV)
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
 
Theo1689 said:
What do you see in John 20:31 that you falsely think Calvinists don't accept?
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Calvinism teaches man is dead and must have life imparted tom him before he can believe

John teaches man must faith before he is made alive
 
TomFL said:
One is not regenerated until one believes
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I know you believe that but what bothers me the most about it is, how much scripture you quote and it does not support you. I’m really surprised you don’t understand it.
let’s take a look at some of your verses.
TomFL said:
John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
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Not sure how you find such a teaching here?
The gospel is written because it’s the good news about Jesus, and it is what me must believe.
The end of all evangelical history is faith in Christ.
It is also true if we believe in Jesus, we have life.

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5.

So it’s obvious who has the Son (believes) has life.

look at the verse above.
Whoever does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has bourn concerning His Son.

Let me ask you. Is it possible to make God a liar? Of course not, I hope you agree. Because God is not a liar.
So why does that passage say such a thing? It seems to say that man can make God a liar if he don’t believe.
I believe that statement is for the believers benefit, encouragement and assurance.
If you believe God, you have the testimony in yourself.

or as the NASB says it, 1 John 5:11
And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
So the cause, foundation and the original of it are in Christ.

If you believe in Christ it’s not because you had faith first, it’s because God gave you eternal life in His Son.

If you believe in Christ, be encouraged, have that blessed assurance. God alone has done it.
 
TomFL said:
One is not regenerated until one believes
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And your still wrong.
TomFL said:
John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
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Really Tom? I assume you agree with context?
Lets look at it.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

First, it does say: to all who did receive him.
So, Christ was given. I think we both can agree here.
Since He was given, we can believe. As just mentioned in 1 John. In previous post.

But keeping context… How do we explain this that you presented? John 1:12.
Well, let’s turn to context.

So we have those who receive Him, and believe in His name. Is it as you say? Free will faith? Not according to the next verse which explains how.

1) who were born not of blood.
So it has nothing to do with natural generation.
2) nor of the will of the flesh or of man.
So no one can make themselves believe by any act, disposition, or motion of their own human will.

But of God.
Only By the power of His Spirit!


Tom, I have to say, so far you have presented a poor choice of verses. Plus, by whose authority gives you the right to take scripture apart, out of context, and present it as truth?

Worse of all by doing so, your claiming this is what God has said! Remember the Third Commandment!
 
Carbon said:
And your still wrong.

Really Tom? I assume you agree with context?
Lets look at it.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

First, it does say: to all who did receive him.
So, Christ was given. I think we both can agree here.
Since He was given, we can believe. As just mentioned in 1 John. In previous post.

But keeping context… How do we explain this that you presented? John 1:12.
Well, let’s turn to context.

So we have those who receive Him, and believe in His name. Is it as you say? Free will faith? Not according to the next verse which explains how.

1) who were born not of blood.
So it has nothing to do with natural generation.
2) nor of the will of the flesh or of man.
So no one can make themselves believe by any act, disposition, or motion of their own human will.

But of God.
Only By the power of His Spirit!


Tom, I have to say, so far you have presented a poor choice of verses. Plus, by whose authority gives you the right to take scripture apart, out of context, and present it as truth?

Worse of all by doing so, your claiming this is what God has said! Remember the Third Commandment!
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Tom has them DOING something then has God rewarding their work (doing) with eternal life. That's a false gospel.
 
TomFL said:
Colossians 2:12-13 (ESV)
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
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Tom I’m not sure how this could relate to your theory, so I’ll leave it for now. If you care to elaborate, please do.
 
TomFL said:
Ephesians 2:5-8 (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
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Tom I’m shocked you would pick such a passage! Do you know what you have done? You have totally destroyed your theory. Would you like to dive into this passage together?
 
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Theo1689 said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I have NEVER claimed that "life comes before believing".
I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS believed that life comes AFTER believing:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever (1) believes in him should not perish but (2) have eternal life.
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So you believe the logical sequence is: first there is regeneration, then afterwards faith, then afterwards eternal life?
 
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