Sethproton
Well-known member
Why do they teach it in one thread then deny it in another?
Of course part of it is that they say regeneration is before faith, as if regneration does not mean new life
The foundation of all salvation.
- Thread starter Carbon
- Start date
Of course part of it is that they say regeneration is before faith, as if regneration does not mean new life
Carbon
Super Member
Or he thinks he’s mine.Maybe you are his spiritual father now
Sethproton
Well-known member
Since you have never even a single time shown me taking a verse apart to use as a proof text, you ought to have some discretion and only talk about what you have actually seen me do.
But, if you know of a piece of text that I interpret out of context, let us have that example, or else you might set your heart to only talk about what you have seen me do
Carbon
Super Member
Where Seth? Would you point that post out? Maybe you didn’t understand it?
Sethproton
Well-known member
So you guys will go back and forth like you are playing tennis
No life before faith
Life before faith
No life before faith
Life before faith
Carbon
Super Member
Okay Seth, even though I see it is your way of treating scripture, I’ll wait until you do it again before I comment.
Sound fair?
Carbon
Super Member
No, not us. Your doing it, look at your post and see.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Thank you for admitting the trickery involved by anti-Calvinists.
You have spoken more than once about engaging in "Frankenstein-ism", combining a person's beliefs with something they don't believe, and creating a "Frankenstein" variant straw-man that nobody believes.
You are doing PRECISELY that.
You are ASSUMING that "regeneration" is the same as "eternal life", and projecting that onto our beliefs, to falsely CREATE an error that doesn't otherwise exist. You have created a "Frankenstein" monster that doesn't exist and that nobody believes.
Please provide a BIBLICAL CITATION which states, "regeneration is identical to eternal life", or "born-again is identical to eternal life". If not, then stop misrepresenting Calvinists.
Carbon
Super Member
It just goes to show his serious lack of understanding.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
I read that, and it is baseless.
Carbon
Super Member
Seth, why are you like this? There was a time when I was able to talk to you, maybe you like my old name Foghorn better?
Carbon
Super Member
Faith is by no means to be sublimated into a wish.
but that’s what you do.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Here is seth's argument, applied to math:
Stephen Hawking: "2 + 2 = 4"
Stephen Hawking: "2 + 3 = 5"
Seth: "Hawking is trying to deny that 4 = 5. So therefore he is saying that "2 + 2" is the same as "2 + 3", making "2 = 3", which everyone knows is a contradiction."
Except that Hawking never believed that 4 = 5.
Yes it depends on God. Without God we would have no libertarian choice.
Yes, people under general revelation do libertarianly deny there is a God. Ok, they may be lying but they asserted a choice. Then how do you know today's atheists aren't just lying? And if they already reject God, wouldn't they reject the gospel that requires belief in God? Well of course lying can be repented of.
I would say atheists receive full revelation on their knees at the judgement and then believe, when it's too late. But before that they already rejected sufficient general revelation and/or sufficient gospel.
But I would say the gospel is plainly sufficient for libertarian choice to lead to salvation. You are saying irresistable full revelation is if at the judgement, where they will all believe when it's too late. Irresistable grace doesn't occur now.
But according to predeterminists, wouldn't even libertarian thoughts and works be the first and meticulous unconditional cause of God and thus in a sense gifts of God? So how according to you can there be any of our own libertarian works? … unless God accuses his own works, which is ridiculous. Your own assertions prove libertarianism.
Sethproton
Well-known member
No it does not sound fair at all. If you misspoke then just admit you have never seen me take a verse out of context to twist it.
If you have seen me do it, then say the details
Carbon
Super Member
I’ve seen you do it numerous times then Seth. And for now on I’ll point them out.
Sethproton
Well-known member
Ok, if I do that I welcome being corrected on it. Not perfect here, but striving to rightly divide God's Word.
T
TomFL
Guest
Ignoring scripture is what you are doing
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
Colossians 2:13 (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Having ones sins forgiven precedes regeneration
Faith is required before one believes
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
Edited
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“…being born again…”
“…by the word of God…”
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
“…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
Salvation through regeneration and thus
The washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit are the means of salvation so
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
All show faith is before regeneration
Eph. 2:5 —KJV
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
”Quickening being made alive equated with salvation so
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Shows faith precedes regeneration as do
1Co 1:21; Eph 2:8; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9
T
TomFL
Guest
Can you not understand what it does show
1 Corinthians 4:15 (ESV)
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Paul preached the gospel to the Corinthians they believed and were born again
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (ESV)
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
that is how Paul begot them - used instrumentally in the Corinthians born again experience
Preaching a gospel which is not believed is of no benefit
the Corinthians however believed
The gospel and faith in the gospel preceeds regeneration
Hebrews 4:2 (ESV)
2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
L
Ladodgers6
Guest
Exactly Carbon, it always perplexes me that fallen mankind thinks that have something to offer God! That they possess some power of their own to cooperate with God in their Salvation. Our Salvation has always been Monergistic; God doing what we could not, this is the good news for the ungodly!
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”