The foundation of all salvation.

Carbon said:
Tom or Seth will probably say concerning John 17:6 that these Jesus speaks of is just the apostles. I’ve heard that nonsense before.
But Jesus says in the verse, “Yours they were”
This was obviously before they were called even. Just like all the elect. Chosen before the foundation of the world.
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Amen!!!!!!!!

Well, any teaching the flesh doesn't like or agree with has to be dismissed or relegated to a place or person out of context.

The mistreatment of Deuteronomy 30 proves that.

Well, they do this with any text. Don't like it? Neutralize it with a verse. Don't like who it is to? Limit it to someone else (all the while we know God saves all people in the same way, and they are making it that God saves and elects some differently, making Him a respecter of persons.) Not to mention the heresy of "conditional election."

They are all over the place.
 
Carbon said:
Sadly, I fear many think that way
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Wouldn't that show there is no real work of the Spirit within them, no repentance being worked in their hearts, no true work of belief being wrought within them (John 2:29), or in other words, that they see the gospel as PROVISIONISM, some impersonal dispensary of eternal life they can come to and choose to dispense whenever they feel like it?
 
preacher4truth said:
Wouldn't that show there is no real work of the Spirit within them, no repentance being worked in their hearts, no true work of belief being wrought within them (John 2:29), or in other words, that they see the gospel as PROVISIONISM, some impersonal dispensary of eternal life they can come to and choose to dispense whenever they feel like it?
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This is the work of the Spirit in unbelievers

John 16:7-8 (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Kind of refutes your claim for that is what Provisionism teaches

BTW there is no John 2:29
 
Carbon said:
Tom or Seth will probably say concerning John 17:6 that these Jesus speaks of is just the apostles. I’ve heard that nonsense before.
But Jesus says in the verse, “Yours they were”
This was obviously before they were called even. Just like all the elect. Chosen before the foundation of the world.
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Context

John 17:6-12 (KJV)
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

who did Jesus explain all things to

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas son of perdition

John 17:17-18 (KJV)
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

apostles sent

John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


men would believe based on their testimony
 
Carbon said:
So it’s just a leap of faith?

kinda like Indiana Jones!
Not as cool though
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brother, it is easy to tell when someone is intentionally misrepresenting another poster when they use a phrase the other poster did not say, and expresses something different than what they meant. Leap of faith? Nobody said that, so what do YOU mean by it?
 
Carbon said:
Tom or Seth will probably say concerning John 17:6 that these Jesus speaks of is just the apostles. I’ve heard that nonsense before.
But Jesus says in the verse, “Yours they were”
This was obviously before they were called even. Just like all the elect. Chosen before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...
John 17:6 is in the past tense. who are you saying it applies to?
 
Sethproton said:
brother, it is easy to tell when someone is intentionally misrepresenting another poster when they use a phrase the other poster did not say, and expresses something different than what they meant. Leap of faith? Nobody said that, so what do YOU mean by it?
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Seth, if you really read what I have been explaining about faith you would understand and not misrepresent me by saying I’m misrepresenting you.
You would know why I used the words, leap of faith.
I have no issue discussing doctrines with you but it would be nice to actually pay attention to what I say as well.

Since it is not in man, and man cannot just decide to have faith it amounts to a, leap of faith, or a wish.

Do you understand my beliefs, and know why I used those words? If not, then ask me to clarify, and I will. If not, then your not paying attention or, purposely playing and misrepresenting me.
 
Carbon said:
Seth, if you really read what I have been explaining about faith you would understand and not misrepresent me by saying I’m misrepresenting you.
You would know why I used the words, leap of faith.
I have no issue discussing doctrines with you but it would be nice to actually pay attention to what I say as well.

Since it is not in man, and man cannot just decide to have faith it amounts to a, leap of faith, or a wish.

Do you understand my beliefs, and know why I used those words? If not, then ask me to clarify, and I will. If not, then your not paying attention or, purposely playing and misrepresenting me.
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Thanks for explaining "leap of faith" as I did not know what you meant by that. If I understand you correctly, that is the label you give to entrusting yourself to Christ based on what God has revealed to you.
In one sense faith is a gift, in another it is an act we take and there it means to entrust yourself to.
The gift of faith allows us to know that God exists and know some things about Him.
The action of faith is our choice to entrust ourselves to Him because we are convicted that the info about Him is true.
 
Sethproton said:
Thanks for explaining "leap of faith" as I did not know what you meant by that. If I understand you correctly, that is the label you give to entrusting yourself to Christ based on what God has revealed to you.
In one sense faith is a gift, in another it is an act we take and there it means to entrust yourself to.
The gift of faith allows us to know that God exists and know some things about Him.
The action of faith is our choice to entrust ourselves to Him because we are convicted that the info about Him is true.
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Well it seems like your listening or at least trying to.
So I will try and clear it up.

I believe scripture teaches man must be regenerated and given the gift of faith so he can believe, otherwise man of himself cannot believe.

So the natural man, dead in sin, at enmity with God cannot believe.

To teach he can, goes against scripture.
So to say he can have faith and put it into practice is nonsense. He cannotbelieve until he has been regenerated.
So for him to say he has faith is like, in Indiana jones, closing your eyes and taking that leap of faith. Just hoping there will be someone there to catch you, nothing more than a wish. Since one cannot see the kingdom he sees nothing of substance, but likes all the blessings and that’s what he’s after.

It’s having faith in your faith.
 
Sethproton said:
Carbon, that is a strange statement. I stated the fact that the verbs are past tense, and you say it is my choice to believe the verbs are past tense?
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Seth, I’m not into games. Are you really not getting this or are you playing games?
I think your being sly
 
fltom said:
I had a head knowledge of the facts
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So you knew the gospel prior to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and it did nothing for you spiritually...this would equate to head knowledge right? But after the conviction of the Holy Spirit your mind began to change…Is this accurate?
 
Carbon said:
Well it seems like your listening or at least trying to.
So I will try and clear it up.

I believe scripture teaches man must be regenerated and given the gift of faith so he can believe, otherwise man of himself cannot believe.

So the natural man, dead in sin, at enmity with God cannot believe.

To teach he can, goes against scripture.
So to say he can have faith and put it into practice is nonsense. He cannotbelieve until he has been regenerated.
So for him to say he has faith is like, in Indiana jones, closing your eyes and taking that leap of faith. Just hoping there will be someone there to catch you, nothing more than a wish. Since one cannot see the kingdom he sees nothing of substance, but likes all the blessings and that’s what he’s after.

It’s having faith in your faith.
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Can you cite me your best 2 verses that teach an unregenerate man is unable to entrust himself to Jesus.
Or more simply, the unsaved cannot believe.
I would like to see two verses that you feel state this without having to assume or imply meaning,
 
Sethproton said:
Can you cite me your best 2 verses that teach an unregenerate man is unable to entrust himself to Jesus.
Or more simply, the unsaved cannot believe.
I would like to see two verses that you feel state this without having to assume or imply meaning,
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pot asking the kettle that is funny thanks for the laugh.
 
Joe said:
So you knew the gospel prior to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and it did nothing for you spiritually...this would equate to head knowledge right? But after the conviction of the Holy Spirit your mind began to change…Is this accurate?
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basically
 
So you knew the gospel prior to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and it did nothing for you spiritually...this would equate to head knowledge right? But after the conviction of the Holy Spirit your mind began to change…Is this accurate?

fltom said:
basically
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Your experience is what I would consider classic regeneration.
  • Living in unbelief and rejecting Christ - By all accounts, dead to God and alive to sin. - Heart is unbelieving, hard and callous towards God
  • Heard about and yet not truly understanding the value of the Gospel while in this dead to God state. Basically it is foolishness, just another religion.
  • No personal calling of God while in this state.
  • At some point in your life, the Spirit of God engages with you and begins personally calling you.
  • This calling makes you aware of the realities of the living Christ, your need for Him, the state of this world, the promises of a new life
  • At this point faith is being wrought by the Spirit of the Lord and the Gospel - The Spirit of the Lord is giving you ears to hear and eyes to see.
  • As the Spirit of the Lord continues to work within your heart, you begin to believe in what you once rejected, and because you do believe you must come to grips with repenting.
  • When the Spirit of the Lord is done; you have belief, the substance for that belief (the Gospel that you once rejected); you now realize your need for Christ; you no longer value your old original life, but value the new life of being forgiven and one with God
  • At this point your heart is no longer stone - unbelieving, hard and callous towards God, but He has given you a heart of flesh - believing, willingly obedient towards God. And it is at this point you call out to God and begin living by the faith that He wrought inside you. It is by the Spirit of the Lord that He gave you a new heart and caused you to live towards God.
 
Joe said:
Your experience is what I would consider classic regeneration.
  • Living in unbelief and rejecting Christ - By all accounts, dead to God and alive to sin. - Heart is unbelieving, hard and callous towards God
  • Heard about and yet not truly understanding the value of the Gospel while in this dead to God state. Basically it is foolishness, just another religion.
  • No personal calling of God while in this state.
  • At some point in your life, the Spirit of God engages with you and begins personally calling you.
  • This calling makes you aware of the realities of the living Christ, your need for Him, the state of this world, the promises of a new life
  • At this point faith is being wrought by the Spirit of the Lord and the Gospel - The Spirit of the Lord is giving you ears to hear and eyes to see.
  • As the Spirit of the Lord continues to work within your heart, you begin to believe in what you once rejected, and because you do believe you must come to grips with repenting.
  • When the Spirit of the Lord is done; you have belief, the substance for that belief (the Gospel that you once rejected); you now realize your need for Christ; you no longer value your old original life, but value the new life of being forgiven and one with God
  • At this point your heart is no longer stone - unbelieving, hard and callous towards God, but He has given you a heart of flesh - believing, willingly obedient towards God. And it is at this point you call out to God and begin living by the faith that He wrought inside you. It is by the Spirit of the Lord that He gave you a new heart and caused you to live towards God.
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He should disagree with your 4th bullet point; he says he engages with the Gospel personally. He won't want to differentiate between the Gospel and the Person of the Holy Ghost; but he does. I used to defend him all the time because I thought he taught he needed at least two Graces of God; IE the Gospel and the application of the Holy Ghost. But after a long time, he cleared it up and says the Gospel Alone is the only Grace of God he needs...

This is one reason I said something about Cults using the same Words we use; but there is a lot of difference when it comes to Meaning. Sure, if the Holy Spirit handles the sharp two-edged Sword of the Gospel, this is Efficacious Grace; Irresistible every time. But HE himself takes the Hilt of Gospel away from the Spirit; and pricks his own heart...

I could say more about the following bullet points, but after an error, everything else is an error as well...
 
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ReverendRV said:
He should disagree with your 4th bullet point; he says the Gospel engages with him personally. He won't want to differentiate between the Gospel and the Person of the Holy Ghost; but he does. I used to defend him all the time because I thought he taught he needed at least two Graces of God; IE the Gospel and the Holy Ghost. But after a long time, he cleared it up and says the Gospel Alone is the only Grace of God he needs...

This is one reason I said something about Cults using the same Words we use; but there is a lot of difference when it comes to Meaning. Sure, if the Holy Spirit handles the sharp two-edged Sword of the Gospel, this is Efficacious Grace; Irresistible every time...

I could say more about the following bullet points, but after an error, everything else is an error as well...
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Sad thing is he has picked up this new thing about the gospel from Flowers, and he's running with it.

He's excited about it because he thinks this new radical deistic provisionist gospel point of his has slain Calvinism.
 
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