The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

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guest1

Guest
What choice did Lazarus have after 4 days in the grave ?

Did he choose to come back to life ?

Could Lazarus have refused to come out of the grave ?

How can those who are dead exercise free will or choice ?

Just like Lazarus who was physically dead and could not choose to be Resurrected, to have new life given to him, those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians and Colossians 2 are not able to exercise their free will or choice in their regeneration/ the new life that makes them alive spiritually. The dead are dead with no choice or free will to live.

We have no more control over our physical birth than we do our spiritual birth. Man is born dead in his trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-3). We are spiritually dead hence the need for our spiritual birth which comes from the Holy Spirit as we read in John 3. Peter tells us it comes from God , not ourselves : he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3). Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

Its the exact same Resurrection power that raised Lazarus from the dead which brings us who were dead in our sins back to life. Its 100% Gods doing and has nothing to do with man. Its an act of God who raises the dead back to life. Once again God is Active and man is passive in Resurrection Life.

hope this helps !!!
 
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G

guest1

Guest
I will quote Sproul below which is a great article:


One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
What choice did Lazarus have after 4 days in the grave ?

Did he choose to come back to life ?

Could Lazarus have refused to come out of the grave ?

How can those who are dead exercise free will or choice ?

Just like Lazarus who was physically dead and could not choose to be Resurrected, to have new life given to him, those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians and Colossians 2 are not able to exercise their free will or choice in their regeneration/ the new life that makes them alive spiritually. The dead are dead with no choice or free will to live.

We have no more control over our physical birth than we do our spiritual birth. Man is born dead in his trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-3). We are spiritually dead hence the need for our spiritual birth which comes from the Holy Spirit as we read in John 3. Peter tells us it comes from God , not ourselves : he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3). Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

Its the exact same Resurrection power that raised Lazarus from the dead which brings us who were dead in our sins back to life. Its 100% Gods doing and has nothing to do with man. Its an act of God who raises the dead back to life. Once again God is Active and man is passive in Resurrection Life.

hope this helps !!!
The physically dead cannot attain physical resurrection; however, the spiritually dead can attain spiritual life through faith.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
What choice did Lazarus have after 4 days in the grave ?

Did he choose to come back to life ?

Could Lazarus have refused to come out of the grave ?

How can those who are dead exercise free will or choice ?

Just like Lazarus who was physically dead and could not choose to be Resurrected, to have new life given to him, those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians and Colossians 2 are not able to exercise their free will or choice in their regeneration/ the new life that makes them alive spiritually. The dead are dead with no choice or free will to live.
Jesus commanded all of his disciples to “heal the sick” and “raise the dead” etc.:

Matthew 10:

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Jesus was not the only one who did that, others were also able to. If your analogy is correct, then Jesus is not the only one who is able to “regenerate” people, others should also be able to. Is that what you are saying? Are the disciples of Jesus able to “regenerate” people?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Jesus commanded all of his disciples to “heal the sick” and “raise the dead” etc.:

Matthew 10:

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Jesus was not the only one who did that, others were also able to. If your analogy is correct, then Jesus is not the only one who is able to “regenerate” people, others should also be able to. Is that what you are saying? Are the disciples of Jesus able to “regenerate” people?
Do you understand that Jesus is the source of life as per John 1:4 and that He is the True God and Eternal Life as per 1 John 5:20 and that He is the Resurrection and the Life and that He sends the Holy Spirit ?

Do you know Jesus is the one and only name by which men are saved ?

Do you know it’s not the disciples who had the power snd they were just vessels God used to demonstrate His power ?

That’s why they said it’s Christ in them doing the work.

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Do you understand that Jesus is the source of life as per John 1:4 and that He is the True God and Eternal Life as per 1 John 5:20 and that He is the Resurrection and the Life and that He sends the Holy Spirit ?

Do you know Jesus is the one and only name by which men are saved ?

Do you know it’s not the disciples who had the power snd they were just vessels God used to demonstrate His power ?

That’s why they said it’s Christ in them doing the work.

hope this helps !!!
Still, they were able to raise the dead, as Jesus was able to. And they did it in the same way that Jesus did as well—by faith. What Jesus did to Lazarus, the rest of them could do as well. So if your analogy is correct, Jesus is not the only one who is able to “regenerate” people, others should be able to as well. Is that what you are saying?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Still, they were able to raise the dead, as Jesus was able to. And they did it in the same way that Jesus did as well—by faith. What Jesus did to Lazarus, the rest of them could do as well. So if your analogy is correct, Jesus is not the only one who is able to “regenerate” people, others should be able to as well. Is that what you are saying?
They were not able to as it was Jesus doing it through them since He is God.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
They were not able to as it was Jesus doing it through them since He is God.
According to the New Testament, Jesus performed his miracles by faith, the same as he expected his disciples to be able to do, no difference. Therefore my argument still stands.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Prodigal son was able to repent being dead.
The old I will use a parable as my foundation for truth rather that established truth from scripture and mining truth from a parable that coincides with scripture . You are taking something not meant to be literal and making it literal whereas it has a meaning that should be taken figuratively.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What scripture says"The prodigal son was able to repent being dead" ?

The funny thing is that the parable of the "lost son" (Luke 15:11ff) is revealed together with the "lost sheep" (Luke 15:4ff) and the "lost coin" (Luke 15:8ff).

If the "lost son" was able to "repent", then so too did the "lost sheep" and the "lost coin".
But if you will recall, the "lost sheep" didn't come voluntarily (neither did the lost coin), but the shepherd had to go after it and carry it back to the flock.

The point of the parable of the "prodigal son" was NOT to teach "free will", or "ability to repent" it was to rebuke the Jews (the other "brother") for being jealous that the Father received the prodigal back.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The funny thing is that the parable of the "lost son" (Luke 15:11ff) is revealed together with the "lost sheep" (Luke 15:4ff) and the "lost coin" (Luke 15:8ff).

If the "lost son" was able to "repent", then so too did the "lost sheep" and the "lost coin".
But if you will recall, the "lost sheep" didn't come voluntarily (neither did the lost coin), but the shepherd had to go after it and carry it back to the flock.

The point of the parable of the "prodigal son" was NOT to teach "free will", or "ability to repent" it was to rebuke the Jews (the other "brother") for being jealous that the Father received the prodigal back.
Yes, and common reason should tell you that dead people dont make themselves alive lol
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
... You are taking something not meant to be literal and making it literal whereas it has a meaning that should be taken figuratively.
You mean taking a literally dead person to be equated to a figuratively spiritually dead person?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The old I will use a parable as my foundation for truth rather that established truth from scripture and mining truth from a parable that coincides with scripture . You are taking something not meant to be literal and making it literal whereas it has a meaning that should be taken figuratively.
I thought that is something you guys are often accused of doing. The idea of being “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) is no less used as a metaphor than the idea of the “deadness” of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:24, 32). You are okay with taking the first metaphor literally, but object to second. Some double standards there I see.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
What choice did Lazarus have after 4 days in the grave ?

Did he choose to come back to life ?

Could Lazarus have refused to come out of the grave ?

How can those who are dead exercise free will or choice ?

Just like Lazarus who was physically dead and could not choose to be Resurrected, to have new life given to him, those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians and Colossians 2 are not able to exercise their free will or choice in their regeneration/ the new life that makes them alive spiritually. The dead are dead with no choice or free will to live.

We have no more control over our physical birth than we do our spiritual birth. Man is born dead in his trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-3). We are spiritually dead hence the need for our spiritual birth which comes from the Holy Spirit as we read in John 3. Peter tells us it comes from God , not ourselves : he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3). Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

Its the exact same Resurrection power that raised Lazarus from the dead which brings us who were dead in our sins back to life. Its 100% Gods doing and has nothing to do with man. Its an act of God who raises the dead back to life. Once again God is Active and man is passive in Resurrection Life.

hope this helps !!!

Still assuming a certain understanding for spiritual deadness

Ignoring the fact

In your own text being made alive is refered to as being saved by grace

which we know is through faith v8

Ignoring context which shows all heavenly blessings are in Christ

and that it is through faith one is in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Col 2:13 is preceded by

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

and a reference to baptism and faith

further regarding the translation of Col 2:13

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:13 (NASB77)
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Colossians 2:13 (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

being made alive is preceded by having ones sins forgiven which requires repentance and faith

as here

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (ESV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

further from Ezek 37 we see being made alive is accomplished by the indwelling of the Spirit

Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

which does not happen until one believes Jn 7:38. 39 Gal 3:2, 5, 14

also ignoring the fact the spiritually dead are stated to be made spiritually alive through faith

John 5:24-25 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:53 (KJV)
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

also ignoring the fact one is regenerated- made alive through faith in the gospel - the word of God

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You simply have assumed a correspondance between the physical death of Lazarus and spiritual death apart from an accurate analysis if scripture
 
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