The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

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TomFL

Guest
Right Tom

Why not tell us the difference between Inspiration and Revelation?
Why not tell us why two people who read the same version Bible will come to 2 separate conclusions if there is full revelation to the natural mind.
Wake up the gospel has been revealed

Made known

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hello

Ephesians 3:3-5 (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

when you read

Colossians 1:5-7 (ASV)
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
7 even as ye learned of Epaphras our beloved fellow-servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf,


when preached

stop trying to pit your human reasoning against the scriptures
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Meaningless response.

Where have I ever said that I believe what other men say?

This answer is a big cop-out.

Your claim is that anyone who reads the Bible has full revelation that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and can therefore make an informed decision as to whether they want to believe, or whether they want to willingly cast themselves into the Lake of Fire.

So a Mormon, who has the exact same resources you have, and who has read the Bible somehow receives a different revelation than you from reading the same Bible.
What does that scripture teach according to you:
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Its not what you said but I say. Your Calvinist theology you did not get it from the bible

and I said nothing about full revelation

Why must you alter what was stated

Even saved believers do not have full knowledge

I state enough knowledge is presented for one to believe and be saved

The only copout I see is how you continue to avoid addressing all the scriptures that are contrary to your view

According to me ?

I am not John

John 20:31 (ASV)
31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

what more proof is needed that you do not believe the scriptures
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Of course you do

Scripture stated it is sufficient to make one wise unto salvation

You say it is not and requires additional grace

You need to deal with your denial of scriptures sufficiency
Again you cannot face what I wrote but just bump it off.

Fortunately you expose yourself for all to see.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Its not what you said but I say. Your Calvinist theology you did not get it from the bible

and I said nothing about full revelation

Why must you alter what was stated
You cannot believe in the Lordship of Christ without full revelation of what He did on the cross.
So now you say reading the scripture is not sufficient?

Stop flopping around.

Everything I write is biblical. I am not ashamed to say that the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus Christ to me as my Lord and Savior when I heard the gospel.
I did not receive it with lofty speech or words of wisdom.

Everything He teaches me about His Lordship is in scripture and is sufficient.

You are the one twisting things around.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No, I have no problem with it and I addressed your claim.


No, it isn't contrary to any verse you posted.


Except Jesus Himself refutes you...time and time again....

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
All you offered was denial

and Jesus did not refute me but affirns what i stated

The Father Drew Jesus draws

John 12:32 (ASV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

through the gospel

John 6:45 (ASV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

1 Peter 1:23 (ASV)
23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.

which one must believe before being begotten

Hebrews 4:2 (ASV)
2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.

which may not be believed

As was typical I posted a number of links and argumentys which you do not address

This would be one


The fact that one must first believe before he can have the spirit another

Galatians 3:14 (ASV)
14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

John 7:38-39 (ASV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water.
39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified.

that makes your claim one cannot understand the gospel until he has the spirit impossible
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Meaningless response.

Where have I ever said that I believe what other men say?

This answer is a big cop-out.

Your claim is that anyone who reads the Bible has full revelation that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and can therefore make an informed decision as to whether they want to believe, or whether they want to willingly cast themselves into the Lake of Fire.

So a Mormon, who has the exact same resources you have, and who has read the Bible somehow receives a different revelation than you from reading the same Bible.
What does that scripture teach according to you:
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Its not what you said but I say. Your Calvinist theology you did not get it from the bible

and I said nothing about full revelation

Why must you alter what was stated

Even saved believers do not have full knowledge

I state enough knowledge is presented for one to believe and be saved

The only copout I see is how you continue to avoid addressing all the scriptures that are contrary to your view

According to me ?

I am not John

John 20:31 (ASV)
31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

what more proof is needed you do not believe the scriptures
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Wake up the gospel has been revealed

Made known

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The power is the revelation through the Spirit Tom. Without revelation it is impossible to believe.
Read what Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

And stop with the petty insults. I am growing really weary of you and your insults.
Hello

Ephesians 3:3-5 (KJV)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Hello?
Yes, without revelation it is impossible to believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior.
For context read what Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church.
when you read

Colossians 1:5-7 (ASV)
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
7 even as ye learned of Epaphras our beloved fellow-servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf,
How can you hear without revelation? You do understand that Jim Jones heard and his followers heard. They heard the same message.
when preached

stop trying to pit your human reasoning against the scriptures
You should stop doing that. You are the one advocating human reasoning not me.
You teach people that by human reasoning they can make an informed choice to believe in God.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You cannot believe in the Lordship of Christ without full revelation of what He did on the cross.
So now you say reading the scripture is not sufficient?

Stop flopping around.

Everything I write is biblical. I am not ashamed to say that the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus Christ to me as my Lord and Savior when I heard the gospel.
I did not receive it with lofty speech or words of wisdom.

Everything He teaches me about His Lordship is in scripture and is sufficient.

You are the one twisting things around.
What he did on the cross has been revealed

The gospel is not a secret

Again I gave you scripture which show the gospel has been revealed

that it is sufficient to accomplish what God sent it for

Why do you not address it

 

Manfred

Well-known member
Its not what you said but I say. Your Calvinist theology you did not get it from the bible

and I said nothing about full revelation

Why must you alter what was stated

Even saved believers do not have full knowledge

I state enough knowledge is presented for one to believe and be saved

The only copout I see is how you continue to avoid addressing all the scriptures that are contrary to your view

According to me ?

I am not John

John 20:31 (ASV)
31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

what more proof is needed that you do not believe the scriptures
Why do you keep n misrepresenting me and abusing scripture by forcing your incorrect beliefs onto scripture.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Newsflash

He has been revealed

It's in the gospel

written down in scripture

preached around the world
No it’s hidden as per 2 Cor 4:3-4.
And even if our gospel(F) is veiled,(G) it is veiled to those who are perishing.(H) 4 The god(I) of this age(J)has blinded(K) the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ,(L) who is the image of God.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
and Jesus did not refute me but affirns what i stated

The Father Drew Jesus draws

John 12:32 (ASV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

through the gospel
Through the gospel?
What does that mean?

According to you His drawing and His gospel is ineffective, and the Bible does not contain everything required to know Christ.

If it was true, who would choose to willingly be thrown into the lake of fire.
Why are there false teachers and preachers.

All have the same access to scripture and the gospel you have.

So why does it work for some and not for others. Time to start defending your position.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Through the gospel?
What does that mean?

According to you His drawing and His gospel is ineffective, and the Bible does not contain everything required to know Christ.

If it was true, who would choose to willingly be thrown into the lake of fire.
Why are there false teachers and preachers.

All have the same access to scripture and the gospel you have.

So why does it work for some and not for others. Time to start defending your position.

You do not know what through the gospel means

No wonder you do not understand scripture

Sorry no I did not say his drawing and the gospel are ineffective I stated they are not irresistible

just like scripture

Heb 4:2

Your appeal to differences does not help you

Even within your theology of Calvinism differences exist

that point to free will rather than determined theology
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No it’s hidden as per 2 Cor 4:3-4.
And even if our gospel(F) is veiled,(G) it is veiled to those who are perishing.(H) 4 The god(I) of this age(J)has blinded(K) the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ,(L) who is the image of God.
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture


BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved
 
G

guest1

Guest
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture


BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved
It’s why regeneration precedes everything.

end of discussion.

next............
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No it’s hidden as per 2 Cor 4:3-4.
And even if our gospel(F) is veiled,(G) it is veiled to those who are perishing.(H) 4 The god(I) of this age(J)has blinded(K) the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ,(L) who is the image of God.
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture


BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved
It’s why regeneration precedes everything.

end of discussion.

next............
Not if one believes scripture

 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture


BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved

Not if one believes scripture

All by nature are blinded by satan. Eph 2:3;4:18
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
 
T

TomFL

Guest
All by nature are blinded by satan. Eph 2:3;4:18
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
First you addressed nothing stated
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture

Preaching the Gospel !

Grace is antecedent in the preservation of the saints ! Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The saints are preserved forever, that is their spiritual interest in Christ. Now it is a...
forums.carm.org

BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved

Not if one believes scripture

The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

I quoted Scripture, so it's not contradictory at all. You quoted a verse which does not teach what you claim The fact is it was contradicted by many verses Post the verses and I'll address each one. I already did. I have been posting them for ages and no one is addressing them...
forums.carm.org

your verse Eph 2:3 says nothing about being blinded to the gospel

Ephesians 2:3 (ASV)
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

rather speaks of manner of living

your other verse

Ephesians 4:18 (ASV)
18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

also says nothing about an inability to understand the gospel when it was presented to them

and if i recall you have affirmed man is able to understand the facts of the gospel

and you are still stuck with

BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture

Preaching the Gospel !

Grace is antecedent in the preservation of the saints ! Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The saints are preserved forever, that is their spiritual interest in Christ. Now it is a...
forums.carm.org

BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved

Not if one believes scripture

The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

I quoted Scripture, so it's not contradictory at all. You quoted a verse which does not teach what you claim The fact is it was contradicted by many verses Post the verses and I'll address each one. I already did. I have been posting them for ages and no one is addressing them...
forums.carm.org

your verse Eph 2:3 says nothing about being blinded to the gospel

Ephesians 2:3 (ASV)
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

rather speaks of manner of living

your other verse

Ephesians 4:18 (ASV)
18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

also says nothing about an inability to understand the gospel when it was presented to them

and if i recall you have affirmed man is able to understand the facts of the gospel

and you are still stuck with

BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved
All by nature are born blind Spiritually as well as dead and deaf.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
All by nature are born blind Spiritually as well as dead and deaf.
Thats your theology not scripture

Sorry but you assume all have been blinded by Satan

And that somehow he is able to make God's word powerless

contrary to scripture

Preaching the Gospel !

Grace is antecedent in the preservation of the saints ! Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The saints are preserved forever, that is their spiritual interest in Christ. Now it is a...
forums.carm.org

BTW your claim is not rational

If the gospel is hid from all the lost no one would ever have been saved

for it is by faith in the gospel one is saved

Not if one believes scripture

The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

I quoted Scripture, so it's not contradictory at all. You quoted a verse which does not teach what you claim The fact is it was contradicted by many verses Post the verses and I'll address each one. I already did. I have been posting them for ages and no one is addressing them...
forums.carm.org
 
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