The Free Will of Lazarus and choice

T

TomFL

Guest
TomFL said:
You quoted a verse which does not teach what you claim

The fact is it was contradicted by many verses
Well, that is proof you don't know what you're talking about, because Scripture never contradicts itself.

Your problem iss ity is not scripture that is contradictedbut your inmterpretation of it

I have produced about a dozen verses show how the spirually dead are made alive by god upon faith


You have yet to address a one of them

You simply produced a verse aboyt tha carnal mind being unable to keep the law

So what

Keeping the law is not the issue

Your denying they can believe is contradicted by those verses

TomFL said:
I already did. I have been posting them for ages and no one is addressing them

Instead they are called spam and not responded to

you already have had opportunity to address at least some but did not do so

You also had called them spam
I take that to mean you don't want me to address them. I have a feeling they were indeed addressed and you dismissed what was said.

Why would you take it that way ?

I noted last post you had not addressed them

I noted they were contrary to your view

I note you still do not addrss them



TomFL said:
here you contradict yourself . Elsewhere you have denied the ability to believe unless regenerated made alive above you now put faith before regeneration
Nothing I said is contradictory. It's all simutaneous....we are drawn, granted faith and caused to be reborn.

No no no no

You gave a logical order which put faith before regeneration

Just as all the verses I had supplied did

then you turned around and claimed men could not believe until regenerated

That is a contradiction

You contradicted yourself

Just as those verses contradict your claimr

TomFL said:
More evidence you contradict yourself
Not even remotely.

Rather obviously see above
TomFL said:
It does not support you merely teaching that God does not regenerate because of man's works or relation to patriarchal head

I produced quotes as to the value of being a child of God
No one is arguing the value of being a child of God.

Receiving Chrisat that is believing ion him which led to receiving the right to be a child of God

which is by regeneration
TomFL said:
Yes he does when we believe
The unregenerate do not believe unless and until drawn, granted and caused to be reborn.

Scripture shows otherwise

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”



Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”
“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2


Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

being made alive is effected by the indwelling spirit

One must first believe before receiving the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

verse after verse

proof after proof
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Well, that is proof you don't know what you're talking about, because Scripture never contradicts itself.

Your problem iss ity is not scripture that is contradictedbut your inmterpretation of it

I have produced about a dozen verses show how the spirually dead are made alive by god upon faith


You have yet to address a one of them

You simply produced a verse aboyt tha carnal mind being unable to keep the law

So what

Keeping the law is not the issue

Your denying they can believe is contradicted by those verses


I take that to mean you don't want me to address them. I have a feeling they were indeed addressed and you dismissed what was said.

Why would you take it that way ?

I noted last post you had not addressed them

I noted they were contrary to your view

I note you still do not addrss them




Nothing I said is contradictory. It's all simutaneous....we are drawn, granted faith and caused to be reborn.

No no no no

You gave a logical order which put faith before regeneration

Just as all the verses I had supplied did

then you turned around and claimed men could not believe until regenerated

That is a contradiction

You contradicted yourself

Just as those verses contradict your claimr


Not even remotely.

Rather obviously see above

No one is arguing the value of being a child of God.

Receiving Chrisat that is believing ion him which led to receiving the right to be a child of God

which is by regeneration

The unregenerate do not believe unless and until drawn, granted and caused to be reborn.

Scripture shows otherwise

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”



Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”
“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2


Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

being made alive is effected by the indwelling spirit

One must first believe before receiving the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

verse after verse

proof after proof

You're quoting yourself....this post of yours is one big cluster. You may want to fix it.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You're quoting yourself....this post of yours is one big cluster. You may want to fix it.
TomFL said:
You quoted a verse which does not teach what you claim

The fact is it was contradicted by many verses

Well, that is proof you don't know what you're talking about, because Scripture never contradicts itself.

Your problem is it is not scripture that is contradicted but your interpretation of it

I have produced about a dozen verses show how the spiritually dead are made alive by God upon faith


You have yet to address a one of them

You simply produced a verse about the carnal mind being unable to keep the law

So what

Keeping the law is not the issue

Your denying they can believe is contradicted by those verses

TomFL said:
I already did. I have been posting them for ages and no one is addressing them

Instead they are called spam and not responded to

you already have had opportunity to address at least some but did not do so

You also had called them spam
I take that to mean you don't want me to address them. I have a feeling they were indeed addressed and you dismissed what was said.

Why would you take it that way ?

I noted last post you had not addressed them

I noted they were contrary to your view

I note you still do not address them



TomFL said:
here you contradict yourself . Elsewhere you have denied the ability to believe unless regenerated made alive above you now put faith before regeneration
Nothing I said is contradictory. It's all simutaneous....we are drawn, granted faith and caused to be reborn.

No no no no

You gave a logical order which put faith before regeneration

Just as all the verses I had supplied did

then you turned around and claimed men could not believe until regenerated

That is a contradiction

You contradicted yourself

Just as those verses contradict your claimr

TomFL said:
More evidence you contradict yourself
Not even remotely.

Rather obviously see above
TomFL said:
It does not support you merely teaching that God does not regenerate because of man's works or relation to patriarchal head

I produced quotes as to the value of being a child of God
No one is arguing the value of being a child of God.

Receiving Christ that is believing on him which led to receiving the right to be a child of God

which is by regeneration
TomFL said:
Yes he does when we believe
The unregenerate do not believe unless and until drawn, granted and caused to be reborn.

Scripture shows otherwise

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”



Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”
“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2


Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

being made alive is effected by the indwelling spirit

One must first believe before receiving the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

verse after verse

proof after proof
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Scripture shows men are made alive upon faithotherwise

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).


Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.


John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”


Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”



Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”
“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth


1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”
“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2


Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

being made alive is effected by the indwelling spirit

One must first believe before receiving the spirit

John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

verse after verse

proof after proof
 
G

guest1

Guest
Col 2:13 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,"


Eph 2:1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Amen regeneration precedes faith sine the dead cannot know or understand the things of God since they are foolishness to them. The natural man is dead in their sins unable to respond to God without the spirit.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
If a person has to be saved to understand spiritual things or respond to God, then they can't even use those things to get saved anyway.

A saved person doesn't need to respond or understand anything to get saved, he's saved already.

A babe in Christ has much to understand. That first understanding is that it is God that causes us to be reborn, not something WE did.

That would mean no one understands the Gospel until after they're saved

The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

in which, since they are already saved, they don't even need that knowledge TO be saved.

They understand the gospel because they are saved.

It's literal nonsense. The Gospel is preached to the LOST not the already saved, and God's grace IS sufficient for even the dead.

You assume that isn't how we are drawn by God.

A dead man can't make himself alive.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
What choice did Lazarus have after 4 days in the grave ?

Did he choose to come back to life ?

Could Lazarus have refused to come out of the grave ?

How can those who are dead exercise free will or choice ?

Just like Lazarus who was physically dead and could not choose to be Resurrected, to have new life given to him, those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians and Colossians 2 are not able to exercise their free will or choice in their regeneration/ the new life that makes them alive spiritually. The dead are dead with no choice or free will to live.

We have no more control over our physical birth than we do our spiritual birth. Man is born dead in his trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-3). We are spiritually dead hence the need for our spiritual birth which comes from the Holy Spirit as we read in John 3. Peter tells us it comes from God , not ourselves : he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3). Just as Lazarus who was dead physically and could not come out of the grave until Jesus gave him life, so we cannot come alive without the regeneration of our spirit by Christ.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

Its the exact same Resurrection power that raised Lazarus from the dead which brings us who were dead in our sins back to life. Its 100% Gods doing and has nothing to do with man. Its an act of God who raises the dead back to life. Once again God is Active and man is passive in Resurrection Life.

hope this helps !!!
Excellent post, Civic! The easiest way to spot heresy is to remember this: Jesus + anything= a false gospel.
 
G

guest1

Guest
If you can only understand the Gospel AFTER you are saved, do you see evangelization as just going out to find out who is already saved?!
No because God regenerates them through the preaching of the gospel. Its the power of God unto salvation. Its the living seed/word of God. Its not our job to figure out who is lost/saved that is Gods.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
If you can only understand the Gospel AFTER you are saved, do you see evangelization as just going out to find out who is already saved?!

Nope.
So evangelizing is really more of a teaching ministry to the Body of Christ that doesn't realized they're saved yet?

Nope.
I would think only brightfame's version of Calvinism would accept that... or do you agree with his views in general.

Don’t know their views.

He is the most logically consistent Calvinist on here, anyway, but I think most Calvinists would disagree with him (strangely, to me).

Maybe so.

But instead of actually addressing what I posted, you didn’t and went on to discuss what someone else believes.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Mr Moreno notes:

Man does not need someone to help him get saved just like Lazarus did not merely need someone to help him become physically alive again, but instead needed someone to make him alive. Man does not need a helping hand, for HOW DOES ONE HELP A DEAD MAN? Of what use would it be to sit a dead man up in his bed, or to stand him up on his feet? Like Lazarus, man needs activation, not enablement in the hope that he will activate himself. HOW DOES ONE ENABLE A DEAD MAN TO BE ALIVE AGAIN? How can a dead man assist in the process of his being made alive? How does one go about seeking a dead man’s contribution to whatever one seeks to do with him? How does one enable a dead man to do anything without first making him alive?
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Well I think that's a baseless, nasty and unfair thing to say.

Except it isn't. You didn't address anything I posted. All you did was talk about what someone that I don't know believes.

Obviously the reason I brought in another poster's belief was to CLARIFY YOURS. Hello.

You ask me to clarify mine. I don't know the beliefs of every poster on this board.

Then you just say "nope" without explaining how your logic doesn't hold, which is completely making ZERO effort to explain yourself.

I was answering your question.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
tom



False Man is spiritually dead until he's born again. A Spiritually dead person cant believe, they dead. Believing /Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22
I will hold to scripture over your misunderstanding of the term dead



Which simply denotes separation from God

Note

Luke 15:24 (ESV)
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.



The Prodigal had left his Father and involvolded himself in riotess living

The Father notes he was dead – lost to him that is separation

The Father also notes he was alive found that speaks of reconciliation



Paul notes

Romans 7:9 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He died spiritually when he sinned

The bible notes sins effect

Isaiah 59:2 (KJV)
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Spiritual death is separation from God not inability to believe



Examine The passage below while speaking of spiritual death and being made alive goes on to explain it in terms of a broken and then restored relationship





Ephesians 2:5-22 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



The Spiritually dead one is separated a stranger, a foreigner far off



The one made alive is nigh, a fellow citizen, part of the household - reconciled



It is upon faith one is made alive

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071


and misapplication of Gal 5:22
And once again unbelievers are not partakers of the fruit of the Spirit



Galatians 5:13-25 (KJV)
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.



The passage is addressed to believers those who have the spirit indwelling and are enabled to walk un the spirit
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Amen regeneration precedes faith sine the dead cannot know or understand the things of God since they are foolishness to them. The natural man is dead in their sins unable to respond to God without the spirit.
Not according to many plain verses of scripture

https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

Further if one cannot understand the gospel without the Spirit

He will never understand the gospel for one cannot receive the spirit without faith



John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:2 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV)
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
A dead man can't make himself alive.
But God can when one believes as many verses show

A few shown below

James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”

“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”

“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2
 
G

guest1

Guest
But God can when one believes as many verses show

A few shown below

James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us birth…”

“…through the word of truth…”

One must believe the word of truth to be given birth

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

one must believe the word of God to be born again

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

…begotten you…”

“…through the gospel…”

One is begotten by the gospel that is through faith in the gospel for the gospel not believed does not profit Heb 4:2
No you just made up that meaning.

DEAD means the inability to respond to stimuli.

nekros: dead

Original Word:
νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.


3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

Conclusion:
I have the biblical meaning correct with dead. Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 declares when we were DEAD( unable to respond) that God made us alive !

next.........................................................
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No you just made up that meaning.

DEAD means the inability to respond to stimuli.

nekros: dead

Original Word:
νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.


3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

Conclusion:
I have the biblical meaning correct with dead. Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 declares when we were DEAD( unable to respond) that God made us alive !

next.........................................................
Sorry you are just repeating yourself

ignoring scripture and the nature of scriptural death



https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-free-will-of-lazarus-and-choice.3073/post-207071

 
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