The free will systems

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Reformedguy

Well-known member
Kampioen said:
Acts 4:27 (KJV) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Acts 4:28 (KJV) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God predeterminately gathered them to do their purpose even by intervening in circumstances and directive ideas in people's minds. But He didn't personally predeterminatively conceive their evil for them.

There was both predeterminism and libertarianism involved.

God *predeterminately* gathered the right *libertarian* people around, to get His purpose done.

That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.
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It does not say their purpose, it's His purpose, His plan, His determination as to what would occur. Which included the evil actions of the participants.
 
S

shnarkle

Well-known member
preacher4truth said:
You're trying way too hard!!!! :LOL:

Instead of your typo laden asinine retort above, why not accept God in all His glory? You know, like Paul; Romans 9:6-29. Like Moses; Exodus 33:18-19. Like Job, when he claimed the same thing we evil Calvinists claim, and in doing so, he wasn't sinning when he said it, nor are we; Job 2:10. Like Peter; Acts 2:39. Like Jude; Jude 1:4. Like Luke; Acts 13:48. Like James; James 1:18. Like John; John 6:37-40, 6:41-50; 6:60-71. Like Calvinists who, unlike you, since you believe you need to get God off the hook, while being appalled at the truth, twist the plain teachings of Scripture into the god you formed to your criteria and then approve of. That's what is truly evil.
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If I'm reading these posts correctly, there are those who assume the human heart is basically good, therefore they have a free will decision to choose good or evil; and those who have a wicked heart, and have no way to choose what is righteous. They may think they want to do the right thing, but they're just fooling themselves.

You would assume the latter position while those who believe in free will would choose the former. It appears to me that if we have free will, there is no need for Christ to save humanity because we can simply choose to do the right thing, and save ourselves.
 
K

Kampioen

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
If I'm reading these posts correctly, there are those who assume the human heart is basically good, therefore they have a free will decision to choose good or evil; and those who have a wicked heart, and have no way to choose what is righteous. They may think they want to do the right thing, but they're just fooling themselves.

You would assume the latter position while those who believe in free will would choose the former. It appears to me that if we have free will, there is no need for Christ to save humanity because we can simply choose to do the right thing, and save ourselves.
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That what you stated would be an example of Pelagianism, where Christianity is more of an example to follow for righteousness.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
If I'm reading these posts correctly, there are those who assume the human heart is basically good, therefore they have a free will decision to choose good or evil; and those who have a wicked heart, and have no way to choose what is righteous. They may think they want to do the right thing, but they're just fooling themselves.

You would assume the latter position while those who believe in free will would choose the former. It appears to me that if we have free will, there is no need for Christ to save humanity because we can simply choose to do the right thing, and save ourselves.
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We are only saved by the grace of God, nothing less, and there is nothing more.
 
L

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Carbon said:
According to you pelagians, semi-pelagian or Arminians.

To freewillers the first good begins with man, and the Holy Spirit is only a benevolent wellwisher.

Yep, the real deed, and not the vague desire, begins on man’s side, though he is described in scripture as “dead in sin.”

The evil in your free will system is that you all insert a legal condition which men have to perform, and all ends at last in the law of works, leaving men to apply to themselves as best they can for the benefits Christ purchased.
mankind is thrown back under a “goodly guise” upon the principle , do and live!
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I don't think they want to hear that, or even investigate it, to find if it's Biblical or not. They are using illogical human reasoning, instead of Scripture. They brush under the rug the texts that do not correlate with their ideas of Free-Will. The thing they do not understand, is that sinners do have a free-will to sin, nobody is coercing them to sin, they're doing willingly, because this is the desires and passions of the flesh they love, and hate the light! But sinners do not have Libertarian Free-Will like Adam & Eve (Pre-Fall), and Christ to choose either way. Sinners are in bondage to sin, and crave the desires of the flesh (Ephesians 2).
 
TibiasDad

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Carbon said:
According to you pelagians, semi-pelagian or Arminians.

To freewillers the first good begins with man, and the Holy Spirit is only a benevolent wellwisher.

Yep, the real deed, and not the vague desire, begins on man’s side, though he is described in scripture as “dead in sin.”

The evil in your free will system is that you all insert a legal condition which men have to perform, and all ends at last in the law of works, leaving men to apply to themselves as best they can for the benefits Christ purchased.
mankind is thrown back under a “goodly guise” upon the principle , do and live!
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Please quote and cite Arminian scholars who assert what you accuse us of believing. Please quote and cite where I have ever asserted what you accuse me of believing.

Doug
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
shnarkle said:
If I'm reading these posts correctly, there are those who assume the human heart is basically good, therefore they have a free will decision to choose good or evil; and those who have a wicked heart, and have no way to choose what is righteous. They may think they want to do the right thing, but they're just fooling themselves.

You would assume the latter position while those who believe in free will would choose the former. It appears to me that if we have free will, there is no need for Christ to save humanity because we can simply choose to do the right thing, and save ourselves.
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being basically good or basically bad has nothing whatsoever to do with whether free will exists.
There is no such requirement Biblically to tie the two together or claim some interdependency
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
Carbon said:
According to you pelagians, semi-pelagian or Arminians.

To freewillers the first good begins with man, and the Holy Spirit is only a benevolent wellwisher.

Yep, the real deed, and not the vague desire, begins on man’s side, though he is described in scripture as “dead in sin.”

The evil in your free will system is that you all insert a legal condition which men have to perform, and all ends at last in the law of works, leaving men to apply to themselves as best they can for the benefits Christ purchased.
mankind is thrown back under a “goodly guise” upon the principle , do and live!
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Your claim is not accurate

No Arminian believes the first good began with man

Provisionist do not either

Without Christs sacrifice and without the gospel no one would ever get saved
 
Manfred

Manfred

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
The rich man who died still understands and speaks and desires.
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Where?

Where does it say he was alive in his sin and while alive in his sin he was able to understand and speak and desire spiritual truth??

Please take the bible and read the passage of Lazarus and the rich man. There is no indication in that story that the rich man who was dead in sin could understand anything about spiritual truths.

31 He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

You can find the story in Luke chapter 16.
 
F

fltom

Well-known member
fltom said:
Your claim is not accurate

No Arminian believes the first good began with man

Provisionist do not either

Without Christs sacrifice and without the gospel no one would ever get saved
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Hey Carbon

Are you going to deal with your misrepresentation ?
 
R

Reformedguy

Well-known member
fltom said:
Your claim is not accurate

No Arminian believes the first good began with man

Provisionist do not either

Without Christs sacrifice and without the gospel no one would ever get saved
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And without you doing your part the same can be said. Your Roman Catholic. Salvation is a cooperative effort.
 
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