The free will systems

Kampioen

Active member
Of course it is. Merited salvation is no salvation at all...
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

What else do you want to judge God on?
But your universal predetermination means all merit is God, not man. Your use of Scripture implies not merit but God's indiscriminate pleasure.

Romans 9 does not speak against libertarianism but against fighting God's predeterminative intervention. People try to buck against their lot in God's history. God intervenes in history to cause it to go His way but not universally to the extent there is no libertarian will, especially concerning salvation.

Salvation is **because** ie libertarianly of faith.

Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? *Because* they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Limited Predetermination is elaborated in Isaiah 10 where the Assyrians buck against God's predetermination ie the axe bucks against the Hand that wields it. God called them to punish the Israelites and they did so but then became proud and went beyond it, so God punished them back in line.

Isaiah 10:5-7, 15-16 (KJV)
5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

--God predetermines Assyria to punish Israel:

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

--Assyria has other intentions:

7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

--God accuses Assyria of bucking (libertarianly) against the Hand that wields the axe:

15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

--God punishes them maintaining His predetermination by force:

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

Thus you are Scripturally in error.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Chuckle right back at you

Faith does indeed come from the word

God grants and enables it

but it is not something irresistibly effectually installed, infused or transferred into a with-held from a man as Calvinism makes it

Faith is a response by man to God's revelation
Word games.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
The Greek word translated faith can mean to entrust yourself to.
That is something you must do, It is called believing.
God does not believe for you, though He does by faith make Himself evident to you so you can choose
the problem is that "Believing"has no substance, and is evidence of NOTHING except how you feel at the time.
Mark 11:22-24 describes FAITH as "Heart Belief - NOTHING DOUBTING". "Head Belief" (mental assent) is as unstable as silly putty.
 

fltom

Well-known member
...and he keeps on saying what he didn't say. Ain't that something! See that @Carbon?
Do you have a problem understanding ?

Where did I say that was your view ?

I am trying to deal with the idea that faith is a thing that can be given like one gives a gift

and groping for words which may be used to convey the idea.

Why don't you define what you mean by saying faith is a gift so others can employ a terminology acceptable to you

It would solve a lot of problems
 

Carbon

Well-known member
...and he keeps on saying what he didn't say. Ain't that something! See that @Carbon?
Oh yes I see it.
How does he expect us to take him for real?

I know that, you, and the rest of us that have been trying with Tom would find it interesting and great if he would just drop his attitude and engage.

But I think he knows he wouldn’t do very well.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Oh yes I see it.
How does he expect us to take him for real?

I know that, you, and the rest of us that have been trying with Tom would find it interesting and great if he would just drop his attitude and engage.

But I think he knows he wouldn’t do very well.
You need to engage

and read what I wrote

I explained a number of times now

I did not say that was your belief

I am groping for words to use to convey the idea faith can be given like a gift in the absense of

any clarification from you or your peers how this is given

Biblical Faith is a response of the will entrusting yourself to another (Christ)

How can that be given ?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Oh yes I see it.
How does he expect us to take him for real?

I know that, you, and the rest of us that have been trying with Tom would find it interesting and great if he would just drop his attitude and engage.

But I think he knows he wouldn’t do very well.
Agreed. But he doesn't read our posts, he only responds with the same thing over and over. It's quite disrespectful.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
You need to engage
I have tried Tom.
Tell ya what, if I address your posts, will you engage in an actual discussion?
No cut and paste. Flodding people with numerous verses is not for good conversation.

When you do that’s it’s almost impossible to engage with you.

No offense but did flowers tell you to use that technique?

I think it’s fair if we both would have a chance to consider the verses, see if they are out of context etc… I’m always willing to learn, and change my beliefs in certain areas if I am convinced by God’s word.

If you think you can do that, I would be happy to engage.
and read what I wrote
Practice what you preach.
I explained a number of times now

I did not say that was your belief
Okay, even though it did seem like that’s what you meant t the time.
But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I am groping for words to use to convey the idea faith can be given like a gift in the absense of

any clarification from you or your peers how this is given
Fair enough
Biblical Faith is a response of the will entrusting yourself to another (Christ)

How can that be given ?
Do you actually care to discuss this?

if so, I’ll give you time to present your case.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I am trying to deal with the idea that faith is a thing that can be given like one gives a gift
You're assuming, that's the problem. You're trying to make it something like what a man does, and it's not the same thing.
and groping for words which may be used to convey the idea.
You're trying to explain what cannot be explained. Remember the post I gave on that which you simply disregarded, and made it out like it was nothing? Why do you think with that poor dismissive attitude that I would want to keep engaging you?

I dislike saying it but you're disrespectful Tom.
Why don't you define what you mean by saying faith is a gift so others can employ a terminology acceptable to you
You mean so you won't keep assuming what we believe, then deny that you did?
It would solve a lot of problems
I highly doubt that with you Tom. Why? It's never been your track record, you disregard what is written and continue quarreling. Why not go read the post I made, and actually appreciate what was stated about how rebirth and faith happens?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I have tried Tom.
Tell ya what, if I address your posts, will you engage in an actual discussion?
No cut and paste. Flodding people with numerous verses is not for good conversation.

When you do that’s it’s almost impossible to engage with you.

No offense but did flowers tell you to use that technique?

I think it’s fair if we both would have a chance to consider the verses, see if they are out of context etc… I’m always willing to learn, and change my beliefs in certain areas if I am convinced by God’s word.

If you think you can do that, I would be happy to engage.

Practice what you preach.

Okay, even though it did seem like that’s what you meant t the time.
But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough

Do you actually care to discuss this?

if so, I’ll give you time to present your case.
You really have tried, I noticed and agree...
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Romans 9 does not speak against libertarianism but against fighting God's predeterminative intervention. People try to buck against their lot in God's history. God intervenes in history to cause it to go His way but not universally to the extent there is no libertarian will, especially concerning salvation.

Here you can see for yourself the concepts of semi-Deistic Dualism on perfect display, in conversation, which is necessary for the idea of freewill to exist!

The problem is that semi-Deistic Dualism is a heresy with zero foundational support from scripture, therefore the concept of “freewill” is built from a foundation of heresy not afforded by scripture.

In fact the Bible teaches against these very concepts…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
I believe part of the issue here is one is asking how faith and the new birth happen while demanding Calvinists answer, with the underlying caveat that we're clueless because we can't.

Then we are accused of not knowing our own position, and then it is asserted we don't know what biblical faith is at all.

That's what has been happening, coming from @fltom of course, so I'm going to give the proper perspective. The wrong question is being asked, and it is a trap question.

Why?

None of us know how faith or the rebirth happen.

But we do know what happens at rebirth and gifting of faith, by what Scripture says, Ephesians 1-2 especially deals with this.

The question should be what happens, none of us knows how it happens.

Enough of the silly games, trap questions, and finger pointing ridicule.
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
No i don't think you have

and we have travel this road before

Do you remember objecting to one of my list and how I gave you one single verse to deal with

and an argument based on that verse

You totally ignored my argument anbd just posted some thoughtsw about you had about the verse

that is not engagingh




Again we have been there before

with even a single verse

you ignored my argument



I have never spoken to him

He does not know me I don't know him

Further I accommodated your request without any significant change in results







Again its an old tune

been there done that





Are you referring to faith being a gift ?

aside from the issue of how faith is given as a gift

(Some do in fact think it is infused - Catholics)

I have presented reasons for why Faith in Eph 2:8 should not be considered the gift

based on grammar, comparison of scripture , and context

for the most part all I saw in response are claims of it being obvious

And all you do is distort, twist ,indulge in character assassination and ad hominem

How many posts have you spoken of me while not in a conversation with me where you have attacked me personally to others ?

Do you see me mentioning you and attacking you to others in posts which are not to you

I can't even post scripture to you without you distorting it into me making a claim i never made

You do this constantly in response to scripture I have posted

take your opening words and apply them to yourself
Okay Tom, have it your way.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I believe part of the issue here is one is asking how faith and the new birth happen while demanding Calvinists answer, with the underlying caveat that we're clueless because we can't.

Then we are accused of not knowing our own position, and then it is asserted we don't know what biblical faith is at all.

That's what has been happening, coming from @fltom of course, so I'm going to give the proper perspective. The wrong question is being asked, and it is a trap question.

Why?

None of us know how faith or the rebirth happen.

But we do know what happens at rebirth and gifting of faith, by what Scripture says, Ephesians 1-2 especially deals with this.

The question should be what happens, none of us knows how it happens.

Enough of the silly games, trap questions, and finger pointing ridicule.
And if the Bible is true and man is really actually dead( no life , stimuli ) in sin then regeneration is a necessity which is exactly what scripture teaches us in John 3, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2. The dead cannot place faith in God, it’s an impossibility .

It’s the equivalent of asking Lazarus to come out of the grave without Jesus giving him life. Impossible
 

fltom

Well-known member
I believe part of the issue here is one is asking how faith and the new birth happen while demanding Calvinists answer, with the underlying caveat that we're clueless because we can't.

Then we are accused of not knowing our own position, and then it is asserted we don't know what biblical faith is at all.

That's what has been happening, coming from @fltom of course, so I'm going to give the proper perspective. The wrong question is being asked, and it is a trap question.

Why?

None of us know how faith or the rebirth happen.

But we do know what happens at rebirth and gifting of faith, by what Scripture says, Ephesians 1-2 especially deals with this.

The question should be what happens, none of us knows how it happens.

Enough of the silly games, trap questions, and finger pointing ridicule.

There you go discussing me again

what you were asked is how is faith given

seeing as you claim it is a gift

and how can what requires an act of the will be given - biblical faith is not just believing facts

and the only one I stated did not know what biblical faith is reformed guy who confirmed it himself

never mentioned you or anyone else

and even that was to get him to see that man responding in faith as is his responsibility is not a system of merit

but rather a rejection of personal merit and trusting upon the merits of Christ

Where is the glory in that ?

But How many times did you/others claim I was glorifying man based on this ?

How many times did you discuss me to others using ad hominem and distorted character assassination tactics

How many times did you state I was taking glory away from God giving it to man?

by arguing faith is mans responsibility ?

How many times did reformed guy report I was teaching salvation by merit ?

despite the fact the bible denies that faith is a works or merit system ?
 
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