The Genesis 15 claim, as it relates to LDS theology

dberrie2020

Super Member
dberrie2020 said: Have you not read Genesis 12?

I have. You are undermining your own argument because the text of scripture does NOT say what you say it says and what it does actually state contradicts your posts.

Not sure where you derive that from. Wasn't this your post?

Josheb said: The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15.

That just isn't true--and can be shown as a false claim by reading Genesis 12:

Genesis 12---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

There is the condition, and God's grace. Abram obeyed. Abraham's obedience is listed as the reason of the promise:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church--God's grace for our obedience to Him--just as Genesis shows.

God did not ask Abram if he wanted to be chosen before God chose him. God did not ask Abram if he wanted to be called prior to God calling him. The command to leave was not a request and it occurred only after God had already chosen and called Abram.

Josheb--your claim -- "The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15"--is a false claim, regardless of what you believe about whether God had already chosen Abram or not.

That occurs in Genesis 12--and is connected to Abram's obedience.
 
dberrie2020 said: Have you not read Genesis 12?

I have. You are undermining your own argument because the text of scripture does NOT say what you say it says and what it does actually state contradicts your posts.

Not sure where you derive that from. Wasn't this your post?

Josheb said: The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15.

That just isn't true--and can be shown as a false claim by reading Genesis 12:

Genesis 12---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

There is the condition, and God's grace. Abram obeyed. Abraham's obedience is listed as the reason of the promise:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church--God's grace for our obedience to Him--just as Genesis shows.

God did not ask Abram if he wanted to be chosen before God chose him. God did not ask Abram if he wanted to be called prior to God calling him. The command to leave was not a request and it occurred only after God had already chosen and called Abram.

Josheb--your claim -- "The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15"--is a false claim, regardless of what you believe about whether God had already chosen Abram or not.

That occurs in Genesis 12--and is connected to Abram's obedience.

With all the claims the critics make about Genesis 15, surely--someone would want to address this?(and yes, Josheb--God does require something of Abram in Genesis12)
 
Not sure where you derive that from........................

Josheb--your claim -- "The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15"--is a false claim, regardless of what you believe about whether God had already chosen Abram or not. That occurs in Genesis 12--and is connected to Abram's obedience. With all the claims the critics make about Genesis 15, surely--someone would want to address this?(and yes, Josheb--God does require something of Abram in Genesis12)
You had your chance to discuss this with me cogently and proved either unwilling or unable to do so. I meant what I said. Be different the next time we trade posts or the same thing will happen again. A simple word search of the word "covenant" will readily show the first mention of the term with Abraham occurs in chapter 15. Objectively verifiable.

I am correct and you are wrong.

I have already posted about the origins of the covenant in Genesis 12 AND I've already posted about the fact you started with chapter 26, not 15, AND the fact you start new threads in an effort to subvert previously existing discussions. You are doing what you do, what has already been established as aberrant and abhorrent.
 
Not sure where you derive that from. Wasn't this your post?



That just isn't true--and can be shown as a false claim by reading Genesis 12:

Genesis 12---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

There is the condition, and God's grace. Abram obeyed. Abraham's obedience is listed as the reason of the promise:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church--God's grace for our obedience to Him--just as Genesis shows.



Josheb--your claim -- "The first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15"--is a false claim, regardless of what you believe about whether God had already chosen Abram or not.

That occurs in Genesis 12--and is connected to Abram's obedience.
12 God had told Abram, "Leave your own country behind you, and your own people, and go to the land I will guide you to. 2 If you do, I will cause you to become the father of a great nation; I will bless you and make your name famous, and you will be a blessing to many others.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and the entire world will be blessed because of you."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had instructed him, and Lot went too; Abram was seventy-five years old at that time. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth-the cattle and slaves he had gotten in Haran-and finally arrived in Canaan. 6 Traveling through Canaan, they came to a place near Shechem, and set up camp beside the oak at Moreh. (This area was inhabited by Canaanites at that time.)
7 Then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said, "I am going to give this land to your descendants." And Abram built an altar there to commemorate Jehovah's visit. 8 Afterwards Abram left that place and traveled southward to the hilly country between Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he made camp, and made an altar to the Lord and prayed to him. 9 Thus he continued slowly southward to the Negeb, pausing frequently.
 
You had your chance to discuss this with me cogently and proved either unwilling or unable to do so. I meant what I said. Be different the next time we trade posts or the same thing will happen again. A simple word search of the word "covenant" will readily show the first mention of the term with Abraham occurs in chapter 15. Objectively verifiable.

I am correct and you are wrong.

That term "covenant" wasn't your claim. You claimed the first mention of "first mention of the covenant with Abraham we have is in Genesis 15".

That just isn't true. The first mention of the covenant with Abram was in Genesis 12--as the Bible Study tools shows:

The Abrahamic Covenant

"The Abrahamic Covenant Bible story is from the book of Genesis and begins with chapter 12 as God calls upon Abraham to go to the land of Canaan where he promises to "make of him a great nation," a blessing unto to mankind through his descendants all families of the world shall be blessed."

That covenant was also connected with God's command for Abram to move to another land--which Abram obeyed.
 
12 God had told Abram, "Leave your own country behind you, and your own people, and go to the land I will guide you to. 2 If you do, I will cause you to become the father of a great nation; I will bless you and make your name famous, and you will be a blessing to many others.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and the entire world will be blessed because of you."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had instructed him, and Lot went too; Abram was seventy-five years old at that time. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth-the cattle and slaves he had gotten in Haran-and finally arrived in Canaan. 6 Traveling through Canaan, they came to a place near Shechem, and set up camp beside the oak at Moreh. (This area was inhabited by Canaanites at that time.)
7 Then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said, "I am going to give this land to your descendants." And Abram built an altar there to commemorate Jehovah's visit. 8 Afterwards Abram left that place and traveled southward to the hilly country between Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he made camp, and made an altar to the Lord and prayed to him. 9 Thus he continued slowly southward to the Negeb, pausing frequently.

Which connects Abram's obedience to God's covenant blessings and grace in Genesis 12.
 
Elijah the Tishbite said:
12 God had told Abram, "Leave your own country behind you, and your own people, and go to the land I will guide you to. 2 If you do, I will cause you to become the father of a great nation; I will bless you and make your name famous, and you will be a blessing to many others.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and the entire world will be blessed because of you."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had instructed him, and Lot went too; Abram was seventy-five years old at that time. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth-the cattle and slaves he had gotten in Haran-and finally arrived in Canaan. 6 Traveling through Canaan, they came to a place near Shechem, and set up camp beside the oak at Moreh. (This area was inhabited by Canaanites at that time.)
7 Then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said, "I am going to give this land to your descendants." And Abram built an altar there to commemorate Jehovah's visit. 8 Afterwards Abram left that place and traveled southward to the hilly country between Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he made camp, and made an altar to the Lord and prayed to him. 9 Thus he continued slowly southward to the Negeb, pausing frequently.

Which connects Abram's obedience to God's covenant blessings and grace in Genesis 12.

Still waiting

Genesis 12---King James Version
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
 
Also at Genesis 12:7 it says, "And the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land,"
So he built an altar there to the Lord who appeared to him." I bring this up because of what Stephen stated at Acts 7:2 when he was addressing the Jews. "And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers!" "The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran."

Also, at Genesis 17:1-2 it says, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abrah and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

The point which is to be noted is that the Lord God made good on His promise not only in giving Abraham the land, but to bless him even more through his descendants. My question to you is who "physically" appeared to Abraham? I ask because the Bible makes it clear that God the Father cannot be seen, so who appeared to him?

In Him,
james
 
7 Then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said, "I am going to give this land to your descendants." And Abram built an altar there to commemorate Jehovah's visit.

Notice that the covenant changes from Chapter 12:7 to Chapter 15:18, to Chapter 17:8.

12:7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.
15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates
17:8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”


In chapters 12 and 15 Abraham wasn't included in the original promise, only his children were. It is only later, after he obeyed and complied with all of the requirements in Chapter 12 (by finally getting rid of Lot) that he is now included in the covenant made with him.
 
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
much of the OT describes events in the other world...
so the concept of seed is not related to these animal bodies we have now...which
we received because of adam's crime...
but the seed concept relates to the glorified Gorgeous nature
man had in Eden, which has a superior physicality and doesn't need to "animal procreate"
to have children.

Also, the KJV is corrupt.
 
much of the OT describes events in the other world...
so the concept of seed is not related to these animal bodies we have now...which
we received because of adam's crime...
but the seed concept relates to the glorified Gorgeous nature
man had in Eden, which has a superior physicality and doesn't need to "animal procreate"
to have children.

Also, the KJV is corrupt.
In the other world? What other word?
 
so you think this horror planet is of God...
or that this disabled ape body is of God ?
This horror planet is your own creation. I live in a beautiful world of Love where all prejudices is extinguished in favor of a beautiful life of Love, Holy Love, or Holy Spirit Love is called in a bible that my God created for me, the mansion that is designed for me.
now that is just insane.
It always is for one who's world is dark, ugly, full of violent apes. The world I live in is beautiful, full of love and caring for one another with a disposition of just help thy neighbor no matter who or what he may be on the inside.

Ive talked to inmates who were child molesters, robbers, killers, and of the same image you have of Gods creations for nearly all of them say the same things as you do, they were dealt a raw hand and victims of it, which in reality is their own undoings.

Gods kingdom is light, beautiful, and it doesnt come with observation, it is within you, Luke 17:20-21, but not for one as yourself who see Gods kingdom as sewer that you tread in every hour of every day that is full of bullet holes and hatred.

If I was a young man again I would be over in Ukraine trying to do something to help those who's aggressors live in the same ugly world as you described that you do.

And think on this. You accuse Adam for your own iniquities, if every person who ever lived was still alive there would have to be 10 earths to sustain all of them for this planet even with todays population is in struggle providing for the populous this day.

How do you think billions and billions of people could drive the freeways LOL. It is bad enough right now.
 
so you think this horror planet is of God...
or that this disabled ape body is of God ?

now that is just insane.
Oh, back to this again, eh?

So, was David insane when he penned the following in Ps. 24?

A Psalm of David.​

24 The earth IS the Lord’s, and [a]ALL it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
 
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its true so I never left it.
No, it is patently false!

You need to stop dismissing the Scriptural witness, and answer my question!

Now, note the following from Ps 139:
For You formed my [i]inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [j]I AM fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My [k]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance...

Now--was David insane when he wrote what he did in Ps. 24? That I bolded--yes or no? Was he insane when he praised God for his body in Ps. 139? Did David think God gave him an "ape" body? Would he have praised God so fervently for giving him an "ape" body?
 
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No, it is patently false!

You need to stop dismissing the Scriptural witness, and answer my question!

Now, note the following from Ps 139:


Now--was David insane when he wrote what he did in Ps. 24? That I bolded--yes or no? Was he insane when he praised God fir his body? Did David think God gave him an "ape" body? Would he have praised God so fervently for giving him an "ape" body?

What I need to stop is responding further.

Bye.
 
12 God had told Abram, "Leave your own country behind you, and your own people, and go to the land I will guide you to. 2 If you do, I will cause you to become the father of a great nation; I will bless you and make your name famous, and you will be a blessing to many others.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and the entire world will be blessed because of you."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had instructed him, and Lot went too; Abram was seventy-five years old at that time. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth-the cattle and slaves he had gotten in Haran-and finally arrived in Canaan. 6 Traveling through Canaan, they came to a place near Shechem, and set up camp beside the oak at Moreh. (This area was inhabited by Canaanites at that time.)
7 Then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said, "I am going to give this land to your descendants." And Abram built an altar there to commemorate Jehovah's visit. 8 Afterwards Abram left that place and traveled southward to the hilly country between Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he made camp, and made an altar to the Lord and prayed to him. 9 Thus he continued slowly southward to the Negeb, pausing frequently.
What translation are you quoting from? In vs 2, your translation says "if you do" Do you have a Hebrew text to support that?
 
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