The glories of atheism in action today.

SteveB

Well-known member
What's the phrase some of you like to use.... the beatings will continue until you agree with us....
Yeah. This is exactly what the atheist authorities are doing to Jesus followers in China.

So, my hat's off to you for your promotion of such violence against humanity in the communist country of China.


The Chinese Communist Party, which embraces atheism, exercises tight controls over any form of religious practice among its citizens. State security police and religious affairs bureau officials frequently raid unofficial "house churches" that aren't members of the CCP-backed Three-Self Patriotic Association, although member churches have also been targeted at times. The CCP under Xi Jinping regards Christianity as a dangerous foreign import, with party documents warning against the "infiltration of Western hostile forces" in the form of religion. Li said he was held in a windowless room for nearly 10 months, during which time he was beaten, verbally abused and "mentally tortured" by staff, eventually resorting to self-harm by throwing himself against a wall. His account is chillingly similar to those of former inmates of "transformation" camps in the northwestern region of Xinjiang. "They use really underhand methods," Li said. "They threaten, insult and intimidate you. These were United Front officials, men, women, sometimes unidentified, usually in plain clothes. The police turn a blind eye to this," he said. "You have to accept the statement they prepare for you," he said. "If you refuse, you will be seen as having a bad attitude and they will keep you in detention and keep on beating you." Basement brainwashing sessions Li said most of his fellow inmates were also people who had been released on bail during criminal detention for taking part in church-related activities. Most hadn't done anything that could trigger any criminal prosecution, so police sent them to the "transformation" facilities instead, Li said. "They were using brainwashing methods on those of us who were on bail from the detention center," he said. "It was in a secret location, in a basement." "There were two plainclothes officers in my room, and a uniformed officer was in another room," Li said. "There were no windows, no ventilation and no time allowed outside," he said. "I was given just two meals a day, which were brought to the room by a designated person." Inmates who refused to "admit their mistakes" were held in solitary confinement for prolonged periods. "There is no time limit for the brainwashing process," he said. "I don’t know the longest time anyone has been held there, but I was detained for eight or nine months." "You can't see the sun, so you lose all no concept of time."​
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
What's the phrase some of you like to use.... the beatings will continue until you agree with us....
Yeah. This is exactly what the atheist authorities are doing to Jesus followers in China.

So, my hat's off to you for your promotion of such violence against humanity in the communist country of China.


The Chinese Communist Party, which embraces atheism, exercises tight controls over any form of religious practice among its citizens. State security police and religious affairs bureau officials frequently raid unofficial "house churches" that aren't members of the CCP-backed Three-Self Patriotic Association, although member churches have also been targeted at times. The CCP under Xi Jinping regards Christianity as a dangerous foreign import, with party documents warning against the "infiltration of Western hostile forces" in the form of religion. Li said he was held in a windowless room for nearly 10 months, during which time he was beaten, verbally abused and "mentally tortured" by staff, eventually resorting to self-harm by throwing himself against a wall. His account is chillingly similar to those of former inmates of "transformation" camps in the northwestern region of Xinjiang. "They use really underhand methods," Li said. "They threaten, insult and intimidate you. These were United Front officials, men, women, sometimes unidentified, usually in plain clothes. The police turn a blind eye to this," he said. "You have to accept the statement they prepare for you," he said. "If you refuse, you will be seen as having a bad attitude and they will keep you in detention and keep on beating you." Basement brainwashing sessions Li said most of his fellow inmates were also people who had been released on bail during criminal detention for taking part in church-related activities. Most hadn't done anything that could trigger any criminal prosecution, so police sent them to the "transformation" facilities instead, Li said. "They were using brainwashing methods on those of us who were on bail from the detention center," he said. "It was in a secret location, in a basement." "There were two plainclothes officers in my room, and a uniformed officer was in another room," Li said. "There were no windows, no ventilation and no time allowed outside," he said. "I was given just two meals a day, which were brought to the room by a designated person." Inmates who refused to "admit their mistakes" were held in solitary confinement for prolonged periods. "There is no time limit for the brainwashing process," he said. "I don’t know the longest time anyone has been held there, but I was detained for eight or nine months." "You can't see the sun, so you lose all no concept of time."​
What the Chinese are doing is not a necessary consequence of atheism. You can be just as atheistic as the Chinese and not raid churches, interrogate people, etc. Atheists in the West nowadays tend to be humanists and support freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc.

This is such an easy issue of logic, Steve, that I'm not surprised you fell for it.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
What the Chinese are doing is not a necessary consequence of atheism. You can be just as atheistic as the Chinese and not raid churches, interrogate people, etc. Atheists in the West nowadays tend to be humanists and support freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc.

This is such an easy issue of logic, Steve, that I'm not surprised you fell for it.
The problem is that Christians really do not have much of an argument, so they have to take what they can get.

To SteveB, Atheists in China are torturing Christians, therefore Christian is true is probably one of the best arguments he has. To be honest, it is one of the best I have seen on CARM, but only because they are generally so awful. At least this one does not rely on assuming the Bible is true, so that is refreshing.

This is the guy who a few weeks ago said the Watergate scandal showed the resurrection is a fact, remember.

My guess is that it is not about presenting a robust argument, it is about presenting the facade of an argument so you can feel good about yourself.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What the Chinese are doing is not a necessary consequence of atheism. You can be just as atheistic as the Chinese and not raid churches, interrogate people, etc. Atheists in the West nowadays tend to be humanists and support freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc.

This is such an easy issue of logic, Steve, that I'm not surprised you fell for it.
In other words, a logical disconnect between you and your beliefs when they reach the magnitude of government.

I seriously encourage you to actually study the clear philosophical outcomes of your atheism. Don't be so naive.

As we say regarding socialism.

It's not that it hasn't been correctly applied in other countries. It's that once it reaches a certain level, what you see in the countries where it exists at the level of government, this is exactly what happens.

Your "humanist" ideas are "fine" at small levels. But what China is doing right now, what Soviet Russia and eastern European governments did before..... this is exactly where your atheism, and your humanism is heading.

Idealism doesn't matter once the community of practitioners becomes large enough.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
The problem is that Christians really do not have much of an argument, so they have to take what they can get.

To SteveB, Atheists in China are torturing Christians, therefore Christian is true is probably one of the best arguments he has. To be honest, it is one of the best I have seen on CARM, but only because they are generally so awful. At least this one does not rely on assuming the Bible is true, so that is refreshing.

This is the guy who a few weeks ago said the Watergate scandal showed the resurrection is a fact, remember.

My guess is that it is not about presenting a robust argument, it is about presenting the facade of an argument so you can feel good about yourself.
I'm here on CARM mostly to hone my critical thinking skills by identifying illogical steps in posts (sometimes my own). A secondary goal is to get bystanders to the conversation to think logically. Last and least likely goal is to convince the person I'm talking with.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The problem is that Christians really do not have much of an argument, so they have to take what they can get.

To SteveB, Atheists in China are torturing Christians, therefore Christian is true is probably one of the best arguments he has. To be honest, it is one of the best I have seen on CARM, but only because they are generally so awful. At least this one does not rely on assuming the Bible is true, so that is refreshing.

This is the guy who a few weeks ago said the Watergate scandal showed the resurrection is a fact, remember.

My guess is that it is not about presenting a robust argument, it is about presenting the facade of an argument so you can feel good about yourself.
Actually, I'm presenting a news article about atheists in action.

You should be proud that your atheist ideologies are so helpful to others who don't want anything to do with them.

The same thing is happening to the Uyghur Muslims.

They're being sterilized, imprisoned, beaten, "re-educated", etc....

All by the glorious atheist government and mindset. Your "unbelief" is worked out in brutalizing others who want nothing to do with it.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Actually, I'm presenting a news article about atheists in action.

You should be proud that your atheist ideologies are so helpful to others who don't want anything to do with them.

The same thing is happening to the Uyghur Muslims.

They're being sterilized, imprisoned, beaten, "re-educated", etc....

All by the glorious atheist government and mindset. Your "unbelief" is worked out in brutalizing others who want nothing to do with it.
So like the Christians did to Native Americans?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I'm here on CARM mostly to hone my critical thinking skills by identifying illogical steps in posts (sometimes my own). A secondary goal is to get bystanders to the conversation to think logically. Last and least likely goal is to convince the person I'm talking with.
Then show that your beliefs, in practical daily outworking are actually helpful to the human race, and not as destructive as they have been for the past 140 years.

This is your opportunity to engage in thinking logically and putting together a pragmatic approach.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
In other words, a logical disconnect between you and your beliefs when they reach the magnitude of government.
Not at all. My atheism instituted at a government level would not look like the Chinese government. How odd of you to say that.
I seriously encourage you to actually study the clear philosophical outcomes of your atheism. Don't be so naive.
You missed the word "necessary" in my post ("necessary consequence"). I'll grant for the sake of argument that you can get from atheism to Chinese repression of religion, but that still doesn't mean that **my atheism** has to, should, or would do the same.

As we say regarding socialism.

It's not that it hasn't been correctly applied in other countries. It's that once it reaches a certain level, what you see in the countries where it exists at the level of government, this is exactly what happens.
Humanist atheism is opposed to the totalitarian aspects of the Chinese government.

Your "humanist" ideas are "fine" at small levels. But what China is doing right now, what Soviet Russia and eastern European governments did before..... this is exactly where your atheism, and your humanism is heading.
What they are doing has nothing to do with humanism, so I have no idea how humanism leads to those things. Did China and the Soviets get that way because they were humanist and gradually became the totalitarian societies they became? Despite the fact that humanism is about as different from and opposed to totalitarianism as you can get?

Idealism doesn't matter once the community of practitioners becomes large enough.
Humanism is not necessarily an idealistic philosophy. Who said anything about idealism? I consider myself a realist.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
Then show that your beliefs, in practical daily outworking are actually helpful to the human race, and not as destructive as they have been for the past 140 years.

This is your opportunity to engage in thinking logically and putting together a pragmatic approach.
That's what I aspire to. BTW, what happened 140 years ago?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So like the Christians did to Native Americans?
Show me where it was actually Jesus followers who did it.
Jesus was pretty clear that just because somebody calls him Lord, it doesn't make them Christian. Matthew 7.

Nor would it be anymore than being a drug dealer makes them a pharmacist.

So, if laziness is your thing, then sure. But if you're more interested in intellectual honesty, then no. Jesus followers are not responsible for what happened to the native Americans.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
What's the phrase some of you like to use.... the beatings will continue until you agree with us....
Yeah. This is exactly what the atheist authorities are doing to Jesus followers in China.

So, my hat's off to you for your promotion of such violence against humanity in the communist country of China.


The Chinese Communist Party, which embraces atheism, exercises tight controls over any form of religious practice among its citizens. State security police and religious affairs bureau officials frequently raid unofficial "house churches" that aren't members of the CCP-backed Three-Self Patriotic Association, although member churches have also been targeted at times. The CCP under Xi Jinping regards Christianity as a dangerous foreign import, with party documents warning against the "infiltration of Western hostile forces" in the form of religion. Li said he was held in a windowless room for nearly 10 months, during which time he was beaten, verbally abused and "mentally tortured" by staff, eventually resorting to self-harm by throwing himself against a wall. His account is chillingly similar to those of former inmates of "transformation" camps in the northwestern region of Xinjiang. "They use really underhand methods," Li said. "They threaten, insult and intimidate you. These were United Front officials, men, women, sometimes unidentified, usually in plain clothes. The police turn a blind eye to this," he said. "You have to accept the statement they prepare for you," he said. "If you refuse, you will be seen as having a bad attitude and they will keep you in detention and keep on beating you." Basement brainwashing sessions Li said most of his fellow inmates were also people who had been released on bail during criminal detention for taking part in church-related activities. Most hadn't done anything that could trigger any criminal prosecution, so police sent them to the "transformation" facilities instead, Li said. "They were using brainwashing methods on those of us who were on bail from the detention center," he said. "It was in a secret location, in a basement." "There were two plainclothes officers in my room, and a uniformed officer was in another room," Li said. "There were no windows, no ventilation and no time allowed outside," he said. "I was given just two meals a day, which were brought to the room by a designated person." Inmates who refused to "admit their mistakes" were held in solitary confinement for prolonged periods. "There is no time limit for the brainwashing process," he said. "I don’t know the longest time anyone has been held there, but I was detained for eight or nine months." "You can't see the sun, so you lose all no concept of time."​
As an atheist I think this is horrible. China does not act on behalf of atheists. I condemn this and I think the US should try and help these Christians the best we can.

The real question is why does God allow this? I do not have the power to stop the Chinese government - I would if I could. But God could save all of those Christians right now. And he does not.

I'll write to my congressman to tory and get help for those Christians. But if God is real then you have a much better chance with God.

Blaming American atheists for the actions of the Chinese government is as logical as Americans beating a people of Asian descent for the Corona virus. Are you responsible for the bad acts of any Christian on the planet?

Your logic, and your argument, is fatally flawed and illogical.

You and I stand together in wanting to help those Christians.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As an atheist I think this is horrible. China does not act on behalf of atheists. I condemn this and I think the US should try and help these Christians the best we can.

The real question is why does God allow this? I do not have the power to stop the Chinese government - I would if I could. But God could save all of those Christians right now. And he does not.

I'll write to my congressman to tory and get help for those Christians. But if God is real then you have a much better chance with God.

Blaming American atheists for the actions of the Chinese government is as logical as Americans beating a people of Asian descent for the Corona virus. Are you responsible for the bad acts of any Christian on the planet?

Your logic, and your argument, is fatally flawed and illogical.

You and I stand together in wanting to help those Christians.
Ok. Great.

How about writing a letter to the Chinese government and saying that in unequivocal terms.

Make it clear that as an atheist you are disgusted with their beliefs that it's an acceptable thing to brutalize human beings in this manner.
Then publish it in numerous newspapers and magazines around the world.
 

Komodo

Active member
What's the phrase some of you like to use.... the beatings will continue until you agree with us....
Yeah. This is exactly what the atheist authorities are doing to Jesus followers in China.

So, my hat's off to you for your promotion of such violence against humanity in the communist country of China.[. . .]
Needless to say, Steve will not and cannot cite any atheist/agnostic/skeptic here who belongs among the "you" who "like to use the phrase" or who "promote communist violence." It's a perfectly indefinite "you," which doesn't at all address the people he is supposedly addressing.

It's pretty hard to make even a halfway plausible pretense at being engaged in genuine conversation, when you can't even use the second-person pronoun correctly.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Ok. Great.

How about writing a letter to the Chinese government and saying that in unequivocal terms.
I sure can. I do not think it will have much effect though. But I am happy to support human rights anywhere in the world.

Will you write a letter condemning the Christian government that massacred Bosnian Muslims in the 1990s? I assume you are responsible for that if I am to answer for China.
Make it clear that as an atheist you are disgusted with their beliefs that it's an acceptable thing to brutalize human beings in this manner.
Then publish it in numerous newspapers and magazines around the world.
I do not think anyone outside of the Evangelical community's in the USA thinks China is doing this for atheism. Totalitarian regimes crush human rights - be they atheist like China or theist like Iran or the Christian government in Bosnia massacring thousands of Muslims in the 1990s.

It horrific. I do not think you are somehow responsible for the acts of Bosnian Christians. Its insane to blame an Americans atheist for the acts of the Chinese government. Everyone on Earth gets this outside of the American Christian community.

Any luck getting God to stop it? Or is God going to wrath these follows of Jesus Christ suffer?

Either way posts blaming atheists for atrocities does nothing to prove God is real. Even if you were right this post does nothing. Its moot.
 

Komodo

Active member
Ok. Great.

How about writing a letter to the Chinese government and saying that in unequivocal terms.[. . .]
As a member of Amnesty International, I have done precisely that on several occasions.

Then publish it in numerous newspapers and magazines around the world.
I don't own a newspaper or magazine, let alone one which is published around the world, nor do I know anybody who does.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Show me where it was actually Jesus followers who did it.
Actual followers of Jesus have given up all their material goods, as Jesus told his followers to do (Luke 12:33).

I am talking about Christians, the ones who say they follow Jesus, but pick-and-chose the bits they want to follow

Jesus was pretty clear that just because somebody calls him Lord, it doesn't make them Christian. Matthew 7.
And that his followers should give up all their material goods.

So, if laziness is your thing, then sure. But if you're more interested in intellectual honesty, then no. Jesus followers are not responsible for what happened to the native Americans.
Agreed. But it was Christians certainly are.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Notice the double standard, ever-the-tool of shallow religious apologism:
  • Anyone belonging to a group I dislike - behaving in a way I dislike - is evidence that the group is dislikeable.
  • Anyone belonging to a group I like - behaving in a way I dislike - is evidence they're not actual members of the group.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Needless to say, Steve will not and cannot cite any atheist/agnostic/skeptic here who belongs among the "you" who "like to use the phrase" or who "promote communist violence." It's a perfectly indefinite "you," which doesn't at all address the people he is supposedly addressing.

It's pretty hard to make even a halfway plausible pretense at being engaged in genuine conversation, when you can't even use the second-person pronoun correctly.
Oh, wait. I forgot.... you're not actually an atheist, are you?

I have to say..... I find myself wondering why you guys work so hard to separate yourselves from the more pragmatic elements of your "beliefs in unbelief."
It's like you're completely clueless to what your ideas actually DO in this world.
Is this a deliberate and willful cluelessness, or have you simply never taken the time to actually examine what atheism does in this world?

Long before I came to Jesus, I knew what atheism did. I grew up in the cold war world of the 1960's, and 70's, and 80's.
Sure, we did the duck and cover routines for earthquakes-- I grew up in Southern California. But we also did the duck and cover for nuclear bombings-- and we knew exactly where they were coming from. A big old nasty Soviet Union, whose sole goal was the annihilation of liberty.
Apparently, the atheists of Soviet Russia, and Communist (Mao Zedong) China actually liked tyranny, brutality, and thought that their citizens loved being brutalized for their own good. The part we had a problem with were those communists, and atheists, and socialists here in the US, who worked secretly to promote their ideas here.

So, I have to say--- whatever you think atheism is..... it's far more than some innocuous set of ideas that you simply lack belief.
It's an insiduous, vile, and monstrous collection of history, under which well over 150 million humans have been slaughtered like animals, thrown into prisons, slave labor camps, and crushed entire civilizations.

So..... do yourself a favor--- actually learn the truth, and stop playing in a children's playroom. And don't act naive about it. It looks poorly on all of you.
 
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