The glories of atheism in action today.

SteveB

Well-known member
Because the context of the conversation isn't the governments job, it's the Christian's role in that government, and if that passage supports "Just" War Theory,
You're not paying attention.

Rom 13:1-5 WEB 1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authority withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do you desire to have no fear of the authority? Do that which is good, and you will have praise from the authority, 4 for he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid, for he doesn’t bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to him who does evil. 5 Therefore you need to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.

The only response needed from Jesus followers is submission, or yielding to government authorities.



and if that passage supports the Christian being involved in any war, even a "Just" War.
I said one of several passages.


If Christians want to follow the Prince of Peace, I'm not sure how they can do it while fighting wars, and I don't think Romans 12 or 13 define the Christian's role in waging war.
I don't think you actually know how to understand what you read.
I never said anything about Jesus followers waging a military war.
My comments were about fighting against evil.
There are many ways to engage in war that have absolutely nothing to do with physical violence.
I thought Martin Luther King jr. carried out an excellent war in the 50's and 60's for civil rights. He made it clear to his compatriots that violence was not acceptable and forbade them from practicing violence.
With the exception of BLM, and Antifa, the communists here in the United states have not used physical violence. They are now using cancel culture and the education system to promote their beliefs and have for decades.
So, talking about warfare and saying Christian involvement in warfare is a joke.

I would argue the Christian should not be particularly involved in the affairs of the governments of earthly kingdoms, because their kingdom is not of this world, and the one they supposedly follow seemed to have no interest in being involved in earthly government.
I'm sure that is exactly what you want. This is known as tyranny. The United states of America was initiated as an opposition to what you would argue.
I'd say that you should take the time to learn, but you're not willing to learn the simplest lessons, so I doubt you'd be willing to do this.

No worries though. You just showed me that the communists and socialists are succeeding in their war.

Keep the people ignorant, and teach them lies, claiming those lies are in fact the truth.
So, congratulations! You are a casualty of the cold war.

"Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but up to the point where you can no longer tolerate their asinine behavior.
Irritating that you cannot control others with what you want isn't it!
It works by being willing die to follow and obey your leader, even death on a cross.
And?


I don't think it's a good thing. I just don't understand how you can call yourself a follower of Jesus, and claim the Bible as your instruction manual but be so willing to blow any other human's brains out.
Exactly. You don't understand.
Ever wonder why?
Did it ever occur to you that you are so filled with biases and preconceptions that you can't see the truth?


If God doesn't want tyranny to thrive, he is more than capable of accomplishing it with out your involvement, and unless he gives you a clear command to go to war and be in a position to take the life of an image bearer, I would err on the side of caution and peace making so you don't risk finding your self before the judgement seat hearing the words "Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you". Many think they are doing Jesus' work, but he's quite clear that their are many that think they are following him but are deceived. If you want to follow the Prince of Peace, the one who died for his enemies, you may seriously want to consider how willing you are to kill your enemy instead of dying for them.
Then perhaps it's time for you to lose your biases and preconceptions and start reading and learning.
 

Algor

Active member
Apparently you miss all the atheists saying christianity has ruined the world and they are on a mission to destroy it.....somehow.

Atheists are so disappointing, and predictable.

Point out someone saying that, I'll say something. I don't actually read a lot of what most atheists say here because I disagree with many of them but I have found that telling the ones I disagree with most strongly why I disagree to be quite as fruitless as disagreeing with Christians over Christian doctrine.

If you have noticed, I'm way more interested in Christians than atheists, and I'm way more interested in the process of thinking and feeling about doctrine than I am in doctrine itself (although some individual points of religious doctrines are of interest to me, for my own reasons). Atheism (as one meets on the internet, mind you) is really variable in its psychology, and chaotic in its individual roots. Christianity is more culturally normative, even though it is wonderfully various, even here.

So if you see an atheist on this board say anything like Christianity has ruined the world, tell me and I'll go to that thread and disagree with it. It's wrong, IMHO. I really don't have a problem with saying so.

I used to post here under another name (Arnold Chiari II) . Over the years on and off I've disagreed with Lighthearted Atheist, Treeplanter, and a few others for what I think is a somewhat primitive and extreme take on Christianity, and religion in general. Torpin and I just had a minor tiff on the philosophical tolerance of contradiction in religion. It goes on. I'm no champion for Christianity in general, and I don't know why any non-Christian should be a priori expected to be one, but I think it is always reasonable for anyone to point out when someone else is being idiotic towards themselves.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Point out someone saying that, I'll say something. I don't actually read a lot of what most atheists say here because I disagree with many of them but I have found that telling the ones I disagree with most strongly why I disagree to be quite as fruitless as disagreeing with Christians over Christian doctrine.

If you have noticed, I'm way more interested in Christians than atheists, and I'm way more interested in the process of thinking and feeling about doctrine than I am in doctrine itself (although some individual points of religious doctrines are of interest to me, for my own reasons). Atheism (as one meets on the internet, mind you) is really variable in its psychology, and chaotic in its individual roots. Christianity is more culturally normative, even though it is wonderfully various, even here.

So if you see an atheist on this board say anything like Christianity has ruined the world, tell me and I'll go to that thread and disagree with it. It's wrong, IMHO. I really don't have a problem with saying so.

I used to post here under another name (Arnold Chiari II) . Over the years on and off I've disagreed with Lighthearted Atheist, Treeplanter, and a few others for what I think is a somewhat primitive and extreme take on Christianity, and religion in general. Torpin and I just had a minor tiff on the philosophical tolerance of contradiction in religion. It goes on. I'm no champion for Christianity in general, and I don't know why any non-Christian should be a priori expected to be one, but I think it is always reasonable for anyone to point out when someone else is being idiotic towards themselves.
We'll arnold you'll just have to read more. You are not a christian so it's meaningless what you are more interested in, I think you know this, no offense.

I'm not going to run to you everytime I see it, you know that is silly, but I get where you are coming from. Truly, I don't need your help. Atheists are very touchy, and bristle at the thought they are at fault in anything. I mean my word, look at there thread in how to improve the board. It should be how to improve these imbecile christians. It's pathetic, this blindness. I am being generous in saying it's blindness to their own behavior.

I pointed out a simple and agreed upon principle in atheism, it is for the ignorant masses. You can extrapolate lots from that. I see it's effects in atheists here. I have also seen atheists state they want to keep it, simply to control the masses, presumably because the atheist darlings are so much better than that.
 

Algor

Active member
We'll arnold you'll just have to read more. You are not a christian so it's meaningless what you are more interested in, I think you know this, no offense.

I'm not going to run to you everytime I see it, you know that is silly, but I get where you are coming from. Truly, I don't need your help. Atheists are very touchy.

I pointed out a simple and agreed upon principle in atheism, it is for the ignorant masses. You can extrapolate lots from that. I see it's effects in atheists here. I have also seen atheists state they want to keep it, simply to control the masses, presumably because the atheist darlings are so much better than that.
I don't think it is so agreed upon that Christianity is for the ignorant masses. I can think of a few here who say that, but I pay about as much attention to them as I do to the Christians who say atheism is about people being too smart for their own good or things like that. I get annoyed when people blame me for what other atheists do, or blame the Christianity of people here for the Holocaust, or things like that. It's just a bit gross.

There are a lot of atheists who just don't care that much about religion.

Addendum, to try and be completely fair, I think you are right that it is to some degree a matter of whose ox is being gored. Well, I suppose to some degree I'm guilty of partiality. Fair enough. I try not to be. But what I read on Torin's and Nouveau's thread on pro-tips for internet conversations was pretty good, at least from those two. Is that the thread you were referring to?
 
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Furion

Well-known member
I don't think it is so agreed upon that Christianity is for the ignorant masses.
Religion, arnold, religion.

II can think of a few here who say that, but I pay about as much attention to them as I do to the Christians who say atheism is about people being too smart for their own good or things like that. I get annoyed when people blame me for what other atheists do, or blame the Christianity of people here for the Holocaust, or things like that. It's just a bit gross.

Lots of people say things on both sides. I don't pose formal arguments here because it is too pretentious to me, and I don't have the time.
And so it is very informal from my side.

But what I do notice is when atheists bristle at commonly held beliefs among atheists here.

There are a lot of atheists who just don't care that much about religion.

Addendum, to try and be completely fair, I think you are right that it is to some degree a matter of whose ox is being gored. Well, I suppose to some degree I'm guilty of partiality. Fair enough. I try not to be. But what I read on Torin's and Nouveau's thread on pro-tips for internet conversations was pretty good, at least from those two. Is that the thread you were referring to?

Yes, that is the thread. What I don't see in there is any self reflection from atheists, and the whole premise was obvious who the discussion centered upon. I think I even pointed out how judgement works.

That is the type of thing I will notice, whether christian or not, whether I participate or not. The lack of self awareness.
 

Algor

Active member
Religion, arnold, religion.



Lots of people say things on both sides. I don't pose formal arguments here because it is too pretentious to me, and I don't have the time.
And so it is very informal from my side.

But what I do notice is when atheists bristle at commonly held beliefs among atheists here.



Yes, that is the thread. What I don't see in there is any self reflection from atheists, and the whole premise was obvious who the discussion centered upon. I think I even pointed out how judgement works.

That is the type of thing I will notice, whether christian or not, whether I participate or not. The lack of self awareness.
Hm. I don't know about that thread. I mean both Torin and Whateverman pointed out their own biases and where they broke their own rules. One person said that if they could get conservatives to agree that it would be a big step forward (I agree that the same could be said for some atheists) but that was the closest to antireligionism.

I agree: we're all a lot harder on the other guy than on ourselves. But the same could be said for the Christians on the board, no? I mean, if I ran a discussion board and there was someone on it who repeatedly, and obviously fraudulently, claimed that they were an MD, and used his pretension to abuse atheists (or Christians) as a group, I would toss them promptly. If they were an atheist, I'd call them out explicitly and they would be gone. I'd have no hesitation in saying that such a degree of overt mendacity and the claiming of professional qualification was beyond the pale. Yet there is a particularly noisy poster here who does this over and over again, and who is tolerated, and NONE of the Christians on the board make it a habit to explicitly distance themselves from him, and one or two even encourage him. It's a disgrace.

(added in edit and on reflection: some Christians, have said in variably polite terms that the dude is full of it, but in nowhere near the frequency of the guys posts, and it is not at all a regular occurrence, and the management seems to tolerate trolling and spamming in the name of Christianity with equanimity)

So it isn't going just one way. The overall dynamic is really to be expected, unfortunately, of imperfect people.
 
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Furion

Well-known member
Hm. I don't know about that thread. I mean both Torin and Whateverman pointed out their own biases and where they broke their own rules. One person said that if they could get conservatives to agree that it would be a big step forward (I agree that the same could be said for some atheists) but that was the closest to antireligionism.

I agree: we're all a lot harder on the other guy than on ourselves. But the same could be said for the Christians on the board, no? I mean, if I ran a discussion board and there was someone on it who repeatedly, and obviously fraudulently, claimed that they were an MD, and used his pretension to abuse atheists (or Christians) as a group, I would toss them promptly. If they were an atheist, I'd call them out explicitly and they would be gone. I'd have no hesitation in saying that such a degree of overt mendacity and the claiming of professional qualification was beyond the pale. Yet there is a particularly noisy poster here who does this over and over again, and who is tolerated, and NONE of the Christians on the board make it a habit to explicitly distance themselves from him, and one or two even encourage him. It's a disgrace.

(added in edit and on reflection: some Christians, have said in variably polite terms that the dude is full of it, but in nowhere near the frequency of the guys posts, and it is not at all a regular occurrence, and the management seems to tolerate trolling and spamming in the name of Christianity with equanimity)

So it isn't going just one way. The overall dynamic is really to be expected, unfortunately, of imperfect people.
Actually as I explained, the minute you point the finger you've condemned yourself, to put it in simple terms.

Which is ok to sacrifice yourself to make a point.
 

Torin

Active member
As a Tolkien fan, it kind of bugs me that your username is neither Thorin nor Turin.
That's because I am not a Tolkien fan! I could never get into LoTR. I can read long books with no issue, but for some reason the writing didn't grab me. I really liked the Silmarillion in high school though.

The name comes from the first name of a contemporary philosopher who wrote one of my college textbooks. I don't recall his last name offhand, and there was nothing super remarkable about the book. I just thought the name "Torin" sounded good.
 

Algor

Active member
That's because I am not a Tolkien fan! I could never get into LoTR. I can read long books with no issue, but for some reason the writing didn't grab me. I really liked the Silmarillion in high school though.

The name comes from the first name of a contemporary philosopher who wrote one of my college textbooks. I don't recall his last name offhand, and there was nothing super remarkable about the book. I just thought the name "Torin" sounded good.
That's interesting. Most people hate The Silmarillion and prefer LOTR. Me it was the other way around as well.
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
This is a test. Another thing predictable is you cannot honestly admit it when confronted.

You haven't confronted me with anything, you have just made an accusation. If you want to confront me with something then you need to provide evidence in the form of some examples.

The context of my statement is this glorious atheist hole on CARM.

OK, then it should be easy for you to provide some examples.

Tell me salad boy, what say you about christianity? I've read your words, very hostile and condemning.

Really? Can you provide some examples of my "very hostile and condemning" words? Personally I think Christianity can motivate some people to acts of great kindness, but it can also motivate others to acts of great evil. It's the same as almost any other religion.

You think christianity is for the ignorant masses, amirite?

No, you're wrong. Christianity is for all sorts of people, the ignorant, the knowledgeable, the well educated, the badly educated.

You would like to see christianity discredited, and relegated to a few clingers, amirite? Not infecting people with the religion disease, yes?

No, you're wrong again. There are some forms of Christianity that should be discredited because of the negative effect it has on some people. But for the most part Christianity is largely harmless.

This is such a pathetic exercise, the answers are clear for those not defensive to the highest.

Well, if the answers are clear then you should be able to provide some examples.

Never mind the outright haters like tree planter and others, at least they are honest with their opinions. I like people who are up front, not defensive subdermal irritant agitators.

Ah, so you have someone in mind, that should make providing examples really easy.

I don't see you as capable of being honest, sorry.

That's rather rich coming from someone that has thrown out an accusation without providing an evidence or support for the accusation. I'm fairly sure Jesus had something to say about such hypocrisy.
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
That's interesting. Most people hate The Silmarillion and prefer LOTR. Me it was the other way around as well.

I'm quite a fan of fantasy works, but I find Tolkien a bit of a slog to read (rather strange considering I love Dickens!). Never really got into The Silmarillion nor LOTR.
 

Algor

Active member
I'm quite a fan of fantasy works, but I find Tolkien a bit of a slog to read (rather strange considering I love Dickens!). Never really got into The Silmarillion nor LOTR.
It isn't for everybody.

I have a thing for Pauline Bayne's illustrations: she's the one who illustrated the first editions of the Narnia books, and she also did the early promo posters for the LOTR books in North America. I saw that poster as a kid (still have it) and it made me want to read LOTR.

Then I read the Silmarillion, and it contains among the clearest mental images I have from literature. The stand of Hurin, the hound Huan and the story of Beren and Luthien, the glittering of Ringil beneath Morgoth ....Loved all of it.
 

Furion

Well-known member
You haven't confronted me with anything, you have just made an accusation. If you want to confront me with something then you need to provide evidence in the form of some examples.



OK, then it should be easy for you to provide some examples.



Really? Can you provide some examples of my "very hostile and condemning" words? Personally I think Christianity can motivate some people to acts of great kindness, but it can also motivate others to acts of great evil. It's the same as almost any other religion.



No, you're wrong. Christianity is for all sorts of people, the ignorant, the knowledgeable, the well educated, the badly educated.



No, you're wrong again. There are some forms of Christianity that should be discredited because of the negative effect it has on some people. But for the most part Christianity is largely harmless.



Well, if the answers are clear then you should be able to provide some examples.



Ah, so you have someone in mind, that should make providing examples really easy.



That's rather rich coming from someone that has thrown out an accusation without providing an evidence or support for the accusation. I'm fairly sure Jesus had something to say about such hypocrisy.
Ahh the magnanimous atheist is what you claim, where christianity is harmless.

I've been here a long time salad, I'm not worried about what you claim, just stay magnanimous and all is cool.
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
It isn't for everybody.

I have a thing for Pauline Bayne's illustrations: she's the one who illustrated the first editions of the Narnia books, and she also did the early promo posters for the LOTR books in North America. I saw that poster as a kid (still have it) and it made me want to read LOTR.

Then I read the Silmarillion, and it contains among the clearest mental images I have from literature. The stand of Hurin, the hound Huan and the story of Beren and Luthien, the glittering of Ringil beneath Morgoth ....Loved all of it.

Fair play! I think it has a lot to do with the writers style - and the reader's personal taste. While I never really got on with Tolkien I love a lot of the fantasy that is fairly obviously derived from his work.

The greatest enigma for me is Stephen King! Technically he writes very well, his dialogue is great, characters well developed, and plot lines interesting and novel. Yet, I really don't get on with his books...slogged through a few and can't really say I enjoyed them. His book "On Writing" is a fascinating look into the writers craft, a really wonderful book. I just can't get on with his fiction, for some reason I have yet to really identify!
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
Ahh the magnanimous atheist is what you claim, where christianity is harmless.

I've been here a long time salad, I'm not worried about what you claim, just stay magnanimous and all is cool.

You will note that I didn't say Christianity is harmless, I said it was mostly harmless. I also noted that Christianity, like almost any religion can motivate people to do evil things.

Almost every religion has some fringe of fanatics who are dangerous. That is what needs to be guarded against.
 
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