The "gods" of John 10:34-35

johnny guitar

Well-known member
I agree that Jesus Christ ALONE is THE Son of God !!!


My question was...

How is one a Son (capital S) of God?


My answer is... by incarnation

Luke 1:35... And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


Your answer is... by eternal begettal

Would you like to provide a Bible passage?
NO ONE is a son of God by incarnation.
THE ONE and ONLY Son of God is from the beginning. Nothing to do with incarnation.1 John 1:1-2.
BTW Luke 1:35 refers to THE(NOT a)Son of God.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
By having life placed in them (in the same way Adam was brought to life when God "formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life").
This has NOTHING to do with Lazarus or the widow of Nain's son who were resurrected, which means they received their life back from the dead WITHOUT and authority WHATSOEVER.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
NO ONE is a son of God by incarnation.
THE ONE and ONLY Son of God is from the beginning. Nothing to do with incarnation.1 John 1:1-2.
BTW Luke 1:35 refers to THE(NOT a)Son of God.

You said:
BTW Luke 1:35 refers to THE(NOT a)Son of God.

Are you aware that the Greek text does not have the definite article? On whose authority do you add it?
 
Where is Jesus said to be "only-born?" The word translated "only begotten" is a mistranslation.
μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος; Hes.; LXX; PsSol 18, 4; TestSol 20:2; TestBenj 9:2; ParJer 7:26; ApcEsdr 6:16; ApcSed 9:2; Joseph., Just.; loanw. in rabb.) acc. μονογενῆ (-ῆν J 3:16 v.l.; Hb 11:17 D; also ApcEsdr 6:16)


pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only (so mostly, incl. Judg 11:34; Tob 3:15; 8:17) of children: of Isaac, Abraham’s only son (Jos., Ant. 1, 222) Hb 11:17. Of an only son (PsSol 18:4; TestSol 20:2; ParJer 7:26; Plut., Lycurgus 59 [31, 8]; Jos., Ant. 20, 20) Lk 7:12; 9:38. Of a daughter (Diod S 4, 73, 2) of Jairus 8:42. (On the motif of a child’s death before that of a parent s. EpigrAnat 13, ’89, 128f, no. 2; 18, ’91, 94 no. 4 [244/45 A.D.]; GVI nos. 1663–69.)

pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind) of someth. that is the only example of its category (Cornutus 27 p, 49, 13 εἷς κ. μονογενὴς ὁ κόσμος ἐστί. μονογενῆ κ. μόνα ἐστίν=‘unique and alone’; Pla., Timaeus 92c; Theosophien 181, §56, 27). Of a mysterious bird, the Phoenix 1 Cl 25:2.—In the Johannine lit. (s. also ApcEsdr and ApcSed: ὁ μονογενής υἱός; Hippol., Ref. 8, 10, 3; Did., Gen. 89, 18; ὑμνοῦμέν γε θεὸν καὶ τὸν μ. αὐτοῦ Orig., C. Cels. 8, 67, 14; cp. ἡ δύναμις ἐκείνη ἡ μ. Hippol., Ref. 10, 16, 6) μονογενὴς υἱός is used only of Jesus. The renderings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences here (so M-M., NRSV et al.; DMoody, JBL 72, ’53, 213–19; FGrant, ATR 36, ’54, 284–87; GPendrick, NTS 41, ’95, 587–600). τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἔδωκεν J 3:16 (Philo Bybl. [100 A.D.]: 790 Fgm. 2 ch. 10, 33 Jac. [in Eus., PE 1, 10, 33]: Cronus offers up his μονογενὴς υἱός). ὁ μ. υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ vs. 18; τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἀπέσταλκεν ὁ θεός 1J 4:9; cp. Dg 10:2. On the expr. δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός J 1:14 s. Hdb. ad loc. and PWinter, Zeitschrift für Rel. u. Geistesgeschichte 5, ’53, 335–65 (Engl.). See also Hdb. on vs. 18 where, beside the rdg. μονογενὴς θεός (considered by many the orig.) an only-begotten one, God (acc. to his real being; i.e. uniquely divine as God’s son and transcending all others alleged to be gods) or a uniquely begotten deity (for the perspective s. J 10:33–36), another rdg. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is found. MPol 20:2 in the doxology διὰ παιδὸς αὐτοῦ τοῦ μονογενοῦς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. Some (e.g. WBauer, Hdb.; JBulman, Calvin Theological Journal 16, ’81, 56–79; JDahms, NTS 29, ’83, 222–32) prefer to regard μ. as somewhat heightened in mng. in J and 1J to only-begotten or begotten of the Only One, in view of the emphasis on γεννᾶσθαι ἐκ θεοῦ (J 1:13 al.); in this case it would be analogous to πρωτότοκος (Ro 8:29; Col 1:15 al.).—On the mng. of μονογενής in history of religion s. the material in Hdb.3 25f on J 1:14 (also Plut., Mor. 423a Πλάτων … αὐτῷ δή φησι δοκεῖν ἕνα τοῦτον [sc. τὸν κόσμον] εἶναι μονογενῆ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἀγαπητόν; Wsd 7:22 of σοφία: ἔστι ἐν αὐτῇ πνεῦμα νοερὸν ἅγιον μονογενές.—Vett. Val. 11, 32) as well as the lit. given there, also HLeisegang, Der Bruder des Erlösers: Αγγελος I 1925, 24–33; RBultmann J (comm., KEK) ’50, 47 n. 2; 55f.—DELG s.v. μένω. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 658). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
It seems that you are ignorant of the fact that "only born" and "only begotten" mean the exact same thing:
begotten is the past participle of beget (past simple ‘begat’). It is an archaic word now seen only in the older Biblical texts. It means to procreate, as in Abraham begat Isaac; Isaac begat Esau and Jacob; Jacob begat Joseph etc.,

We prefer to use ‘born’ now, so there is essentially no difference.
Because "begotten" is "archaic" English (but 'born' is modern English), MONOGENHS literally means "only born/begotten"(--just as GHGENHS means "earth born/begotten", DIOGENHS means "born/begotten of Zeus", EUGENHS means "well born/begotten", SUGGENHS means "born/begottten with", and HERMOGENHS means "born/begotten of Hermes.

And considering the parents of the MONOGENHS were "of the same kind", I'm not sure how the MONOGENHS is "unique" or "one of a kind".

Moreover, because MONOS by itself means "only/alone", I'm not sure why MONOGENHS would be translated as "only".
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Yeah, they follow the ECF when it suits them. Modern twisting of a biblical text for a blatant theological reason.
Nonsense! Unlike anonymous posters online they actually study historical sources to determine the correct meaning of words and their findings are published in peer reviewed writings.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Nonsense! Unlike anonymous posters online they actually study historical sources to determine the correct meaning of words and their findings are published in peer reviewed writings.

Their new sense for μονογενές is a modern invention. Can you give me one ECF who saw it that way?

What Cretan invented it, do you know?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
It seems that you are ignorant of the fact that "only born" and "only begotten" mean the exact same thing:
Go back and actually read my post. Nothing I said indicates this.
Because "begotten" is "archaic" English (but 'born' is modern English), MONOGENHS literally means "only born/begotten"(--just as GHGENHS means "earth born/begotten", DIOGENHS means "born/begotten of Zeus", EUGENHS means "well born/begotten", SUGGENHS means "born/begottten with", and HERMOGENHS means "born/begotten of Hermes.
And considering the parents of the MONOGENHS were "of the same kind", I'm not sure how the MONOGENHS is "unique" or "one of a kind".
Moreover, because MONOS by itself means "only/alone", I'm not sure why MONOGENHS would be translated as "only".
This post does not make sense. From the LSJ classical Greek lexicon
μονο-γενής, ές,
I
1. and Ion. μουνο-, (γένος) the only member of a kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single, παῖς Hes. Op. 376, Hdt. 7.221, cf. Joh_1:14, Ant.Lib. 32.1; of Hecate, Hes. Th. 426.
2. unique, of τὸ ὄν, Parm. 8.4; εἷς ὅδε μ. οὐρανὸς γεγονώς Pl. Ti. 31b, cf. Procl. Inst. 22; θεὸς ὁ μ. Sammelb. 4324.15.
3. μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, dub. l. in E. Hel. 1685.
4. Gramm., having one form for all genders, A.D. Adv. 145.18.
5. name of the foot, Heph. 3.3.
II
1. Adv. - νῶς, φέρεται μ. ἐν ἑνὶ τόπῳ grows only in one place, Peripl.M.Rubr. 56, cf. 11.
2. in a unique manner, Aët. 15.13,14.​
Note according to LSJ classical Greek lexicon the root word in μονογενής is γένος NOT ginomai as previously thought.
 
Go back and actually read my post. Nothing I said indicates this.
That was the point: that your statement regarding 'only born' being a mistranslation for MONOGENHS was false.
This post does not make sense. From the LSJ classical Greek lexicon
μονο-γενής, ές,

1. and Ion. μουνο-, (γένος) the only member of a kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single, παῖς Hes. Op. 376, Hdt. 7.221, cf. Joh_1:14, Ant.Lib. 32.1; of Hecate, Hes. Th. 426.

2. unique, of τὸ ὄν, Parm. 8.4; εἷς ὅδε μ. οὐρανὸς γεγονώς Pl. Ti. 31b, cf. Procl. Inst. 22; θεὸς ὁ μ. Sammelb. 4324.15.

3. μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, dub. l. in E. Hel. 1685.

4. Gramm., having one form for all genders, A.D. Adv. 145.18.

5. name of the foot, Heph. 3.3.

II

1. Adv. - νῶς, φέρεται μ. ἐν ἑνὶ τόπῳ grows only in one place, Peripl.M.Rubr. 56, cf. 11.

2. in a unique manner, Aët. 15.13,14.
Note according to LSJ classical Greek lexicon the root word in μονογενής is γένος NOT ginomai as previously thought.
If such were true, other words with the -GENHS suffix such as ερμογενης (2 Timothy 1:15) would not mean "born of Hermes".
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
That was the point: that your statement regarding 'only born' being a mistranslation for MONOGENHS was false.
If such were true, other words with the -GENHS suffix such as ερμογενης (2 Timothy 1:15) would not mean "born of Hermes".
You said it I didn't. The second part of that name derives from Ginomai. I don't think I would rely on pagan names for the correct meaning of Greek words in the NT..
G1096 γίνομαι ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
Total KJV occurrences: 672​
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Their new sense for μονογενές is a modern invention. Can you give me one ECF who saw it that way?
What Cretan invented it, do you know?
"What cretan invented it?" Why don't you impress us with your superior knowledge and tell us what the "truth" is.
If LSJ and BDAG are wrong it will take about 210-280 years of combined scholarship to prove that . I can wait.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
"What cretan invented it?" Why don't you impress us with your superior knowledge and tell us what the "truth" is.
If LSJ and BDAG are wrong it will take about 210-280 years of combined scholarship to prove that . I can wait.
BDAG reports how the word is used. The use in the NT is clearly always associated with progeny.

The 'B' in BDAG, Bauer, argues for the sense as found in the NT.

Even the secular ancient writings do as well. Eugenics means well-born. I am sure you recognize the root EU that means good.

It's the pagan religious context we must avoid in interpretation.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
BDAG reports how the word is used. The use in the NT is clearly always associated with progeny.
The 'B' in BDAG, Bauer, argues for the sense as found in the NT.
Even the secular ancient writings do as well. Eugenics means well-born. I am sure you recognize the root EU that means good.
It's the pagan religious context we must avoid in interpretation.
The same old rubbish pagan this, pagan that zero evidence.
Strong's only shows how the words were used. BDAG lists the ancient sources consulted.
Here is my quote from BDAG in an above post. In respect for the observed myopia I have highlighted the historical sources the authors consulted. In order to dispute BDAG one must review all of the listed sources. Good luck

μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος; Hes.; LXX; PsSol 18, 4; TestSol 20:2; TestBenj 9:2; ParJer 7:26; ApcEsdr 6:16; ApcSed 9:2; Joseph., Just.; loanw. in rabb.) acc. μονογενῆ (-ῆν J 3:16 v.l.; Hb 11:17 D; also ApcEsdr 6:16)

pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only (so mostly, incl. Judg 11:34; Tob 3:15; 8:17) of children: of Isaac, Abraham’s only son (Jos., Ant. 1, 222) Hb 11:17. Of an only son (PsSol 18:4; TestSol 20:2; ParJer 7:26; Plut., Lycurgus 59 [31, 8]; Jos., Ant. 20, 20) Lk 7:12; 9:38. Of a daughter (Diod S 4, 73, 2) of Jairus 8:42. (On the motif of a child’s death before that of a parent s. EpigrAnat 13, ’89, 128f, no. 2; 18, ’91, 94 no. 4 [244/45 A.D.]; GVI nos. 1663–69.)
pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind) of someth. that is the only example of its category (Cornutus 27 p, 49, 13 εἷς κ. μονογενὴς ὁ κόσμος ἐστί. μονογενῆ κ. μόνα ἐστίν=‘unique and alone’; Pla., Timaeus 92c; Theosophien 181, §56, 27). Of a mysterious bird, the Phoenix 1 Cl 25:2.—In the Johannine lit. (s. also ApcEsdr and ApcSed: ὁ μονογενής υἱός; Hippol., Ref. 8, 10, 3; Did., Gen. 89, 18; ὑμνοῦμέν γε θεὸν καὶ τὸν μ. αὐτοῦ Orig., C. Cels. 8, 67, 14; cp. ἡ δύναμις ἐκείνη ἡ μ. Hippol., Ref. 10, 16, 6) μονογενὴς υἱός is used only of Jesus. The renderings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences here (so M-M., NRSV et al.; DMoody, JBL 72, ’53, 213–19; FGrant, ATR 36, ’54, 284–87; GPendrick, NTS 41, ’95, 587–600). τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἔδωκεν J 3:16 (Philo Bybl. [100 A.D.]: 790 Fgm. 2 ch. 10, 33 Jac. [in Eus., PE 1, 10, 33]: Cronus offers up his μονογενὴς υἱός). ὁ μ. υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ vs. 18; τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μ. ἀπέσταλκεν ὁ θεός 1J 4:9; cp. Dg 10:2. On the expr. δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός J 1:14 s. Hdb. ad loc. and PWinter, Zeitschrift für Rel. u. Geistesgeschichte 5, ’53, 335–65 (Engl.). See also Hdb. on vs. 18 where, beside the rdg. μονογενὴς θεός (considered by many the orig.) an only-begotten one, God (acc. to his real being; i.e. uniquely divine as God’s son and transcending all others alleged to be gods) or a uniquely begotten deity (for the perspective s. J 10:33–36), another rdg. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is found. MPol 20:2 in the doxology διὰ παιδὸς αὐτοῦ τοῦ μονογενοῦς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. Some (e.g. WBauer, Hdb.; JBulman, Calvin Theological Journal 16, ’81, 56–79; JDahms, NTS 29, ’83, 222–32) prefer to regard μ. as somewhat heightened in mng. in J and 1J to only-begotten or begotten of the Only One, in view of the emphasis on γεννᾶσθαι ἐκ θεοῦ (J 1:13 al.); in this case it would be analogous to πρωτότοκος (Ro 8:29; Col 1:15 al.).—On the mng. of μονογενής in history of religion s. the material in Hdb.3 25f on J 1:14 (also Plut., Mor. 423a Πλάτων … αὐτῷ δή φησι δοκεῖν ἕνα τοῦτον [sc. τὸν κόσμον] εἶναι μονογενῆ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἀγαπητόν; Wsd 7:22 of σοφία: ἔστι ἐν αὐτῇ πνεῦμα νοερὸν ἅγιον μονογενές.—Vett. Val. 11, 32) as well as the lit. given there, also HLeisegang, Der Bruder des Erlösers: Αγγελος I 1925, 24–33; RBultmann J (comm., KEK) ’50, 47 n. 2; 55f.—DELG s.v. μένω. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 658). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Of The Bible.
This may be a bit over your head, but here goes.

In Greek, the article serves to identify the instance of a noun with another (usually previous) occurrence of that noun and thus to make it specific.

An English translation may use the definite article "the" when the Greek does not, but that does not make a bit of difference for the purpose of identification if the article was not used by the inspired writer.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
This may be a bit over your head, but here goes.
In Greek, the article serves to identify the instance of a noun with another (usually previous) occurrence of that noun and thus to make it specific.
An English translation may use the definite article "the" when the Greek does not, but that does not make a bit of difference for the purpose of identification if the article was not used by the inspired writer.
There are other instances in Greek where a noun is definite without the article e.g. genitive constructions..
 
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