Bonnie
Super Member
Even this verse contradicts their doctrine of multiple gods, with their god being one of many, who had to learn how to become a god....How confusing! But we know who the source of this confusion is, don't we?
The gods of Psalm 82
- Thread starter dberrie2020
- Start date
dberrie2020
Super Member
How is that any different than the scenario of the God of the OT--Jesus Christ--making the same statement in the OT--and then, in the NT--the God of the OT was separated out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
That's what I have been attempting to get the critics to engage. The language used in the OT, and the LDS writings---must have had a more intrinsic interpretation than many project upon it. And not only that--but God the Son also claimed He had a God and Father also.
So--care to engage that?
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
So if this is taught in Moses 1:6 and the Old and New testament why do you reject it?
brotherofJared
Well-known member
It looked to me like it was you who missed the point. What makes you think we believe that God had to learn to be God?
Magdalena
Well-known member
That’s what Joseph Smith taught.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
It's not. No one has claimed that it is.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
One again you miss the point. I'll spell it out. You all aren't "attempting to discuss" anything that remotely resembled apologetics.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Indeed, we probably are wasting our time. If you actually made good on your threat, we probably wouldn't be wasting as much.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
And where do you think "mine Only Begotten" stands in that midst? If you'll notice, there are two beings not counting Moses. Both are God's. Try to do a little critical thinking. Is it not possible for there to be other gods and yet none stand beside Him? Is it not possible that one is the source of all the others, not creating them from nothing but taking from what already is and bringing them to Him?
The sad thing that our competitors don't realize is that God thinks a lot more of us than they do.
Just some food for thought, not that you'll spend any time digesting it. Things that are of the spirit are only discerned by the spirit.
Bonnie
Super Member
Yes, and he told his listeners that they too had to learn how to become gods as all other gods before him had done--paraphrasing a little.
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
I see One God not many
2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation
Moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.
(General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
Bonnie
Super Member
Same here. Mormonism contradicts itself all over the place.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
No, he didn't. Quit inserting words that are not there. There is a huge difference between "be" and "become". Your paraphrasing through your colored lenses.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
That doesn't answer my question, does it? I'll try again, where does "mine Only Begotten" stand in that midst? I'll narrow it down. Does Jesus stand beside the Father? Could be be what he is today without the Father? Let me repeat again from that verse... "mine Only Begotten". Try to do a little critical thinking. Could the Savior even exist if not for the Father? Mind you, I'm not talking about the being who is Christ. He has always been and has always been God. I am talking about the fact that He is the Christ. How could he have been our Savior without the Father?
I agree. Elohim is one God. That doesn't mean that there aren't any other gods. The scriptures make it explicitly clear that there indeed, many gods. That's a fact that our critics have yet to come to understand. Rather than wrestling the scriptures to make them fit the ideas you already have, why not learn from them?
It is easy to see that the grammatical number does not match. The three beings/persons do not match the singular verb. How are three "is one God"? Think a little bit. There is no admission of a single entity being God. It's quite clear that there are three individual and distinct entities which is one God. That's a lot to wrap one's head around but it's obvious that God includes, at least, three beings and if that is true, then there is no God beside them.
Well, maybe it is too much for some to grasp. But we can start here: Jesus is NOT his own Father.
The rest of your quotes only serve to display your lack of understanding. No need to show each of them when it's clear you don't have a grasp on the basics.
Magdalena
Well-known member
He said God the Father was not always God. That he worked his way up a ladder until he became god. The same as all other gods have done. And the same way you’re supposed to do it. You quibble about words, and ignore the meaning of the whole doctrine.
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
brotherofJared
Well-known member
That's not what he said. It also has nothing to do with what @Bonnie was referring to
Ok. I'll play your game. This also has nothing to do with Bonnie's claims. She, like you, rely on your paraphrasing to make your points which both of you conclude by extracting your paraphrasing from the context.
It is not hard to conclude that Jesus was once a spirit and now He isn't. It's not hard to see how it is that Jesus is now on a higher rung on the ladder than he once was. Nothing in that statement suggests that Jesus wasn't God before he was born as a human. There is no indication anywhere in the discourse that tries to explain what Jesus was or what the Father was before they became gods. And that's because it never makes the tells us or tries to tells us what he was before he became a God. Do you know why it doesn't? It's because it wasn't the context of his message.
I'm still playing along with your game... All the other gods went from spirit to mortal to immortal resurrected beings. All of them. Every single one. But they didn't become gods. If they became anything, it was either lowering for falling and undoing so, they became devils or servants to a devil. See Ps 82. If those gods could not learn this one vital lesson, they would die like men and fall like one of the princes. Everyone dies, including God, but not everyone falls.
You don't even know the doctrine, not the context. All you have is your talking points and can't seem to climb out of the pit you're in to see the light of day.
Instead of quibbling about nonsense like this, try replying to what I said. Bonnie paraphrased from through her lens, not the actual text. Joseph Smith did not say "become", he said "be". All you're doing is proving that you'd rather defend an opinion and ignore the facts. Her paraphrasing is NOT what Joseph Smith said.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Pay careful attention to what I said. You're just embarrassing yourself. I already said, Jesus didn't need the Father to exist, none of us did. But Jesus did need the Father in order for Jesus to become our Savior. That is, unless you believe that Jesus is His own Father. Do you believe that?
dberrie2020
Super Member
I don't reject the language--I reject the interpretation you project into it.
Again--the same question can be asked of the NT writers, IE--if they accepted the OT languish as you interpret it--then why did they separate out the God of the OT--from the "one God" of the NT?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
No one has engaged that testimony, as of yet.
Do you care to engage it?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Speaking of the NT--again--the same question can be asked of the NT writers, IE--if they accepted the OT language, as you interpret it--then why did they separate out the God of the OT--from the "one God" of the NT?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
No one has engaged that testimony, as of yet.
Why doesn't anyone engage this testimony of the NT scriptures?