Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
I have no disagreement with any of the Scriptures you posted
The gods of Psalm 82
- Thread starter dberrie2020
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dberrie2020
Super Member
Then perhaps you could explain for us how separating out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--somehow meshes with the theology you postulate here?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
That fits LDS theology well--IS LDS theology.
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
Pre-1835, Joseph Smith taught the Trinity also
2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation
Moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.
(General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
brotherofJared
Well-known member
There have always been three members of the Godhead. Hence the trinity. The problem is in the interpretation. As you probably know very well, throughout our scriptures, God is one. Yet, nowhere will we find the scriptures testifying that they are one being. Hence three beings, or the Trinity "is one God". Joseph never taught anything otherwise.
dberrie2020
Super Member
You post that over and over--and have not yet explained how you collate your theology---or the LDS theology--to the NT witness:
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
That's LDS theology, and reaching back a century won't change that, any more than reaching into the OT language will. There it is. Deal with it. Explain to us how you fit that with the OT language--or your theology--or the LDS theology. But posting something from a century ago won't touch the NT witness.
Bonnie
Super Member
No, there isn't, not in this case, plus, I said I was paraphrasing. Here is the quote: "“You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you.”
Now, suppose you tell us the difference between "learn how to be gods" and "learn how to become gods."
dberrie2020
Super Member
I have a question for Bonnie, which I think will go a long way to answering the question she poses:
John 10:34-36---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
So--did they become gods at some point--or were they gods all along?
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Yes. There is, in this case.
I know. I mentioned that, didn't I?
Yes. And there's the difference. Not become, be.
As I mentioned in a longer post. it is no different than boys learning to be men. There's nothing they can do about becoming a man. That's going to happen whether they want to or not. But to be a man is something completely different and they have to learn how to be a man just as all the men did before them.
I just did.
organgrinder
Well-known member
Joseph Smith taught that humans must learn to become Gods. That is simply false theology as the Bible says there is One and only One God. I stumbled across a video by a King James Onlyist David Daniels, whom I usually do not give the time of day because of his onlyism arguments. However, in this video he is not arguing KJVO, but pointing out that LDS love and hate the KJV for what the Bible says about one God versus many, KJV and LDS scriptures are utilized to prove the point.
Here is the link:
Here is the link:
Last edited:
Bonnie
Super Member
Did you mean to write "false" here, OG? Smith did say that men had to learn to be gods, as all other gods before him had done. Slightly paraphrased.
organgrinder
Well-known member
Thank you. I fixed it.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
No. He didn't. We've just gone over this. Words have meaning and the word Joseph Smith used was not "become", it was "be".
Again, inserting your own words does not make it so. The Bible makes no such claim. In fact, it repeatedly indicates that there are many gods and that God is in fact a God of gods.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
You really ought to stop paraphrasing. You're injecting your animus when you do that.
organgrinder
Well-known member
Sure he taught it. Didn't he say (I am paraphrasing here) you need to learn how to become gods yourselves as other before you? And yes, the Bible does teach there is only one God, which is why I included the video. Isaiah 42 and 43 make it plain. You may reject that but it is what the Bible consistently teaches in both the OT and the NT. God's word is consistent. LDS theology on this matter certainly isn't consistent with what thge Bible says.
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]
Since being is a synonym for God, you will find the statement ONE GOD throughout Scripture
dberrie2020
Super Member
"I have a question for Bonnie, which I think will go a long way to answering the question she poses:
John 10:34-36---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
So--did they become gods at some point--or were they gods all along?"
Does anyone care to engage this question?
John 10:34-36---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
So--did they become gods at some point--or were they gods all along?"
Does anyone care to engage this question?
dberrie2020
Super Member
A couple of points here:
1) If you are going to use the term "homoousios" as a synonym for "Godhead"--don't you think you should at least believe it?
I mean--"homoousios" means "same substance"--and the critics here have one Person of the Godhead as one substance--and another Person as a different substance--right? Jesus is an exalted man of flesh and bones, and the Father--Spirit only?
2) The term "one God" is used in exclusion to God the Son in the NT, and only included God the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Care to engage those points?
dberrie2020
Super Member
If it's so "consistent" and "plain"--then why don't you explain for us the reason the God of the OT--Jesus Christ--is excluded from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And, in addition to that--also assigned a God and Father also:
1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
I anxiously await your plain and consistent explanation for the plain and consistent testimony of the scriptures.
organgrinder
Well-known member
You always ask questions and rarely if ever answer them. Review the video I posted. Then answer me how the Biblical scriptures and the LDS scriptures can be opposed to each other. The Bible emphatically says One God throughout. Joseph Smith taught men may become gods in his King Follet Discourse if my memory serves me correctly.
God's written word is always consistent and does not contradict itself with "new revelation".
Elijah the Tishbite
Active member
The Book of Mormon and D&C both teach The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE GOD
The New Testament and Book of Mormon are clear Jesus is GOD
1. “To those who through the righteousness of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ,” 2 Peter 1:1
Emphatic Diaglott & New King James
2. “The glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 Emphatic Diaglott, NKJ
3.”Keep watch over yourself and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has you overseer. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 New International V
4.”Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all forever praised amen” Romans 9:5 King James
5.”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James
and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James
6.”In the beginning, was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD Himself.” John 1:1 Amplified Version
7.”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; GOD was manifested in the flesh.” 1 Timothy 3:16 King James
8.”and Thomas answered and said to him “ My LORD and my God,” Jesus said to him :Thomas because you have seen me you have believed,” John 20:28 King James
9.”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James
“GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God
10.”who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version
11.”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.
“Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11
“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33
Genesis 19: 27
Now Abraham got up early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before Jehovah
Exodus 6:2 Then God said to Moses: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.
Numbers 12: 6 He then said: “Hear my words, please. If there was a prophet of Jehovah among you, I would make myself known to him in a vision, and I would speak to him in a dream.+ 7 But it is not that way with my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. 8 Face-to-face* I speak to him, openly, not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he sees. Why, then, did you not fear to speak against my servant, against Moses?”
Psalm 102:So that the name of Jehovah will be declared in Zion And his praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples and kingdoms Gather together to serve Jehovah.+ 23 He prematurely robbed me of my strength; He cut short my days. 24 I said: O my God, Do not do away with me in the middle of my life, You whose years span all generations. 25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you will remain; just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end. 28 The children of your servants will dwell securely, And their offspring will be firmly established before you.
Hebrews 1: But when he again brings his Firstborn+ into the inhabited earth, he says: And let all of Gods angels do obeisance to him. 7 Also, he says about the angels: He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers*+ a flame of fire. 8 But about the Son, he says: God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 you loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions. 10 And: At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.Under the footnote in verse 12 in New World foundation says this comes from Psalms 102 where it is a reference to Jehovah .
the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."