The gods of Psalm 82

[Elijah the Tishbite]

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

2 Nephi 11

7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.



1 Nephi 11:24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.



2 Nephi 25: 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

3 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.



3 Nephi 17:

10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears.



Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.



Mosiah 13: 34

34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?



Mosiah 15: 1

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.



Mosiah 17: 8

8 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.



3 Nephi 19:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.



Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.



2 Nephi 10:3

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.



2 Nephi 25:29

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes. There is, in this case.

I know. I mentioned that, didn't I?

Yes. And there's the difference. Not become, be.

Not so much difference, in this instance.

As I mentioned in a longer post. it is no different than boys learning to be men. There's nothing they can do about becoming a man. That's going to happen whether they want to or not. But to be a man is something completely different and they have to learn how to be a man just as all the men did before them.

Ohhhh, so you are saying that men are already gods/deity, but they just need to learn how to ACT like a god/deity? Is that it? The way grown up boys need to learn how to act like men?

I just did.

Did you?

 

[brotherofJared]

but they just need to learn how to ACT like a god/deity

No. That's not what Joseph Smith said. Quote, don't paraphrase, you aren't even close with your paraphrasing.

 

[dberrie2020]

The Book of Mormon and D&C both teach The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE GOD

And the Bible even includes the disciples as being part of that "one":

John 17:20-23---King James Version
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How do you explain that?

The New Testament and Book of Mormon are clear Jesus is GOD​

How does that differ from LDS theology? The LDS believe in the Trinity also.

But in the NT--God the Son was separated out from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You haven't addressed that. Why?

 

[dberrie2020]

Ohhhh, so you are saying that men are already gods/deity, but they just need to learn how to ACT like a god/deity? Is that it? The way grown up boys need to learn how to act like men?

No one has touched the question which has been posed--did these learn how to be gods--or were they gods all along?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Until then--your point in question-- becomes a moot cause.

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

And the Bible even includes the disciples as being part of that "one":

No verse in the New Testament tells us the Disciples are part of ONE GODHEAD ​

John 17:20-23---King James Version
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How do you explain that?



How does that differ from LDS theology? The LDS believe in the Trinity also.

But in the NT--God the Son was separated out from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You haven't addressed that. Why?

 

[dberrie2020]

No verse in the New Testament tells us the Disciples are part of ONE GODHEAD ​

You keep playing musical chairs with the adjectives. Where do we find the "ONE GODHEAD" in the Bible, or in our previous discussion?

My submission of John 17 was in reference to how the LDS view the term "one"--- in some instances:

John 17:20-23---King James Version
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And you have not engaged the NT testimony of separating out God the Son from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Until you do that--your approach is little less than wading in shallow water. Go ahead--take the dive, and engage the verses.

 

[Bonnie]

No. That's not what Joseph Smith said. Quote, don't paraphrase, you aren't even close with your paraphrasing.

Oh, yes I am. I never said that Smith said "you have got to learn how to act like God since you are gods already." Did I? I was asking YOU if what he wrote about learning to be gods meant that they were gods already, they just need to learn how to act like them, since you claim that "be" here doesn't mean "become." And you wrote "no."

So, what DID Smith mean then? In your own words?

 

[brotherofJared]

No verse in the New Testament tells us the Disciples are part of ONE GODHEAD

It looks like it does to me. Have you anything else besides denying the Biblical text? How else is God one? Why are you just denying it and not explaining it? Is it possible that you just don't know what to do with it?

 

[dberrie2020]

It looks like it does to me. Have you anything else besides denying the Biblical text? How else is God one? Why are you just denying it and not explaining it? Is it possible that you just don't know what to do with it?

I'm not sure what the answer is--but no one has engaged the Biblical scriptures which has been posted--nor answered whether the gods of John 10 became gods--or were gods all along?

 

[brotherofJared]

Oh, yes I am

LOL. At least, your denials are positive.

So, what DID Smith mean then? In your own words?

I told you what he meant already in great detail. It is not to learn to act like him. You're misinterpretation offers diminishing returns. The light must come from within. It is not an act. We are not puppets on a string. It is to be or not to be.

You are playing word games and it shows in your slight paraphrasing.

 

[brotherofJared]

I'm not sure what the answer is--but no one has engaged the Biblical scriptures which has been posted--nor answered whether the gods of John 10 became gods--or were gods all along?

I know. Nor will they. One can only draw the conclusion: they don't know.

 

[dberrie2020]

Shame on you, Yitoz, finding a weakness in the Mormon argument about these verses! This subject has been done to death on here. I have asked and asked questions of Mormons about them but never received any real answers. For instance, IF these are real gods, then why are they judging the people unjustly? Wouldn't that make them sinners and demons, like Satan and his ilk? And how would people contact them to render judgments for people? Why would these "gods" neglect widows and orphans and favor the wicked?

They are real gods, Bonnie--the very sons of God:

Psalm 82:6---English Standard Version
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;

You do realize that humans being the sons of God isn't an OT belief?

That didn't come until the NT.

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

It looks like it does to me. Have you anything else besides denying the Biblical text? How else is God one? Why are you just denying it and not explaining it? Is it possible that you just don't know what to do with it?

The Pearl of Great Price clearly teaches only ONE GOD​

Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

[dberrie2020]

The Pearl of Great Price clearly teaches only ONE GOD​

How does that differ from the Biblical NT testimony?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The problem you face is to explain why God the Son was separated out from the "one God"--in the Biblical NT?

No one has touched that yet. That's a radical change from the OT language used. Could you explain why? Was there a change in the language used in describing the Godhead?

And further--in the NT--the God of the OT--Jesus Christ--testified He had a God and Father also.

All of that fits very well into LDS theology today. But it is anathema to the critic's theology here.

Care to engage that?

 

[Bonnie]

LOL. At least, your denials are positive.

Yes, I am positive I am correct.

I told you what he meant already in great detail. It is not to learn to act like him. You're misinterpretation offers diminishing returns. The light must come from within. It is not an act. We are not puppets on a string. It is to be or not to be.

I misrepresented nothing. But you did write this: "As I mentioned in a longer post. it is no different than boys learning to be men. There's nothing they can do about becoming a man. That's going to happen whether they want to or not. But to be a man is something completely different and they have to learn how to be a man just as all the men did before them."

This is great detail??? But do you think that men are already "gods" but just need to learn HOW to act like a god? Is that it? Hence, my question to you about this. But how can this be, because in order to BE gods, people in your church must be exalted to the highest level in the CK, ,and that takes work on their parts--marriages sealed in the temple; doing Temple works; going through the Endowment ceremony; tithing; observing the WoW; wearing temple undergarments for the rest of one's life, and keeping temple recommends for the rest of one's life. THEN, supposedly, they will be rewarded with being gods in the next life, creators of worlds, populated by their own spirit children.

Now, in your own words, what do YOU think Smith meant when he said "you have got to learn how to be gods, as all other gods before you have done"? (may be slightly paraphrased). You have not yet answered that question. If you did, please tell me where to find it.

You are playing word games and it shows in your slight paraphrasing.

No, I am not. I am sincerely trying to figure out what your take is on what Smith wrote in the KFD, about "learn how to be gods."

 

[dberrie2020]

This is great detail??? But do you think that men are already "gods" but just need to learn HOW to act like a god? Is that it? Hence, my question to you about this. But how can this be, because in order to BE gods, people in your church must be exalted to the highest level in the CK,

What is your evidence this isn't the highest level?

1 Peter 5:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Revelation 3:21---King James Version
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

,and that takes work on their parts--

Service always takes work:

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

marriages sealed in the temple; doing Temple works;

Such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Bonnie--your polemic seems to be against the Biblical witness itself.

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

It looked to me like it was you who missed the point. What makes you think we believe that God had to learn to be God?

King Follett sermon, Joseph Smith

Section Four

1. I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

2. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form— like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

 

[brotherofJared]

The Pearl of Great Price clearly teaches only ONE GOD

The same as the Bible, but the passage you are quoting doesn't teach there is only one God. It specifically teaches there is no god beside Him. It implies that there are other gods. That's a direct contradiction to your conclusion.

Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

It's astounding that you miss the obvious implication in this verse. Is the Only Begotten a god or not? What does your theology tell you? In ours, He is a god. In fact, He is one of the Gods in the Godhead. The implication here is that even the Only Begotten, who is a god, is not beside God [the Father] as the god in question is begotten by God.

That's probably too much for you to digest, but hopefully, you get the point that your conclusion is wrong. In fact, it couldn't be more wrong.

 

[brotherofJared]

The problem you face is to explain why God the Son was separated out from the "one God"--in the Biblical NT?

No one has touched that yet. That's a radical change from the OT language used. Could you explain why? Was there a change in the language used in describing the Godhead?

I believe that understanding was scripted out during the reforms in King Josiah's days by some conniving priests. In fact, you can see a shift in politics here, where in the days before Josiah, prophets directed church affairs. That shifted in his day to be priest-run. It was the priests that decided that there should be only one temple (and that for monetary control), who added a book to the Torah - essentially causing the redaction of many parts of the Bible conforming it to present a monotheistic religion as opposed to the decidedly polytheistic religion it was in former days and it appears that the New Testament was trying to correct that change.