The gods of Psalm 82

1. I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.
I'm just going to assume you don't understand anything you quoted here seeing as you offered no comment. But I don't see any issue here.
2. God himself was once as we are now
True. God was born of a woman, just as we are. He also died, just like we do. Do you want me to tell you the story? There are 4 witnesses to that very event.
you would see him like a man in form
That's good news, seeing as we are created in His image.

So far, I'm not seeing any issues. This is all supported by the Bible. The point of the KFD is that what we see in Christ, also occurred with his Father. Another point that is supported by Jesus' own words in the Bible. The notion that God or Jesus or any of us were ever created is not found in the scriptures anywhere nor is it our doctrine.

I admit it is strange to you all who believe God is an ethereal nothingness but that is the great mystery that the KFD was exposing and you quoted the exact phrase that exposes it. But nothing you quoted supports your claim that God had to learn to be God (suggesting that He didn't know how to be God before). I believe He did learn, the same as Jesus did. Do I need to quote you Biblical verses that prove that Jesus learned? Do you know what the lesson is? So, tell me, if you can, what did Jesus learn? What did God learn? And why would that lesson be meaningful?

In my OP, I assumed your point was that we believe that God didn't know how to be God and so had to learn it. That's not what we believe and it's not the point being made in the KFD. Jesus learned. He grew. If Jesus, who is God could learn and grow, then it seems appropriate that all the gods have to do that too. Else, how can they learn to be Gods? There is an important and vital lesson here; one that our critics don't seem to get and who teach a theology that specifically rejects this one lesson.
 
I'm just going to assume you don't understand anything you quoted here seeing as you offered no comment. But I don't see any issue here.

True. God was born of a woman, just as we are. He also died, just like we do. Do you want me to tell you the story? There are 4 witnesses to that very event.

That's good news, seeing as we are created in His image.

So far, I'm not seeing any issues. This is all supported by the Bible. The point of the KFD is that what we see in Christ, also occurred with his Father. Another point that is supported by Jesus' own words in the Bible. The notion that God or Jesus or any of us were ever created is not found in the scriptures anywhere nor is it our doctrine.

I admit it is strange to you all who believe God is an ethereal nothingness but that is the great mystery that the KFD was exposing and you quoted the exact phrase that exposes it. But nothing you quoted supports your claim that God had to learn to be God (suggesting that He didn't know how to be God before). I believe He did learn, the same as Jesus did. Do I need to quote you Biblical verses that prove that Jesus learned? Do you know what the lesson is? So, tell me, if you can, what did Jesus learn? What did God learn? And why would that lesson be meaningful?

In my OP, I assumed your point was that we believe that God didn't know how to be God and so had to learn it. That's not what we believe and it's not the point being made in the KFD. Jesus learned. He grew. If Jesus, who is God could learn and grow, then it seems appropriate that all the gods have to do that too. Else, how can they learn to be Gods? There is an important and vital lesson here; one that our critics don't seem to get and who teach a theology that specifically rejects this one lesson.
:)The Book of Mormon completely disagrees with you:)
 
Who Are the Elohim? By Michael Heiser---ttps://irp.cdn-website.com/540907fb/files/uploaded/Elohim%201%20PDF.pdf

"Psalm 82: God [elohim] stands in the divine assembly; he administers judgment in the midst of the gods [elohim] The word elohim occurs twice in this short verse. Other than the covenant name, Yahweh, it’s the most common word in the Old Testament for God. The first use of the word in this verse worked fine. But since I knew my Hebrew grammar, I saw immediately that the second instance needed to be translated as plural. There it was, plain as day: The God of the Old Testament was part of an assembly—a pantheon—of other gods. Does the Bible say there are other gods? Needless to say, I didn’t hear a word of the sermon. My mind was reeling. How was it possible that I’d never seen that before? I’d read through the Bible seven or eight times. I’d been to seminary. I’d studied Hebrew. I’d taught for five years at a Bible college. What did this do to my theology? I’d always thought—and had taught my students—that any other “gods” referenced in the Bible were just idols. As easy and comfortable as that explanation was, it didn’t make sense here. The God of Israel isn’t part of a group of idols. But I couldn’t picture him running around with other real gods, either. This was the Bible, not Greek mythology. I immediately set to work trying to find answers. I soon discovered that the ground I was exploring was a place where evangelicals had feared to tread. The explanations I found from evangelical scholars were disturbingly weak, mostly maintaining that the gods (elohim) in the verse were just men—Jewish elders—or that the verse was about the Trinity. I knew neither of those could be correct. Psalm 82 states that the gods were being condemned as corrupt in their administration of the nations of the earth. The Bible nowhere teaches that God appointed a council of Jewish elders to rule over foreign nations, and God certainly wouldn’t be railing against the rest of the Trinity, Jesus and the Spirit, for being corrupt. Frankly, the answers just weren’t honest with the straightforward words in the text of Psalm 82. When I looked beyond the world of evangelical scholarship, I discovered that other scholars had churned out dozens of articles and books on Psalm 82 and Israelite religion. They’d left no stone unturned in ferreting out parallels between the psalm and its ideas and the literature of other civilizations of the biblical world—in some cases, matching the psalm’s phrases word for word."

note: Michael Heiser is a noted Evangelical scholar.
 
Who Are the Elohim? By Michael Heiser---ttps://irp.cdn-website.com/540907fb/files/uploaded/Elohim%201%20PDF.pdf

"Psalm 82: God [elohim] stands in the divine assembly; he administers judgment in the midst of the gods [elohim] The word elohim occurs twice in this short verse. Other than the covenant name, Yahweh, it’s the most common word in the Old Testament for God. The first use of the word in this verse worked fine. But since I knew my Hebrew grammar, I saw immediately that the second instance needed to be translated as plural. There it was, plain as day: The God of the Old Testament was part of an assembly—a pantheon—of other gods. Does the Bible say there are other gods? Needless to say, I didn’t hear a word of the sermon. My mind was reeling. How was it possible that I’d never seen that before? I’d read through the Bible seven or eight times. I’d been to seminary. I’d studied Hebrew. I’d taught for five years at a Bible college. What did this do to my theology? I’d always thought—and had taught my students—that any other “gods” referenced in the Bible were just idols. As easy and comfortable as that explanation was, it didn’t make sense here. The God of Israel isn’t part of a group of idols. But I couldn’t picture him running around with other real gods, either. This was the Bible, not Greek mythology. I immediately set to work trying to find answers. I soon discovered that the ground I was exploring was a place where evangelicals had feared to tread. The explanations I found from evangelical scholars were disturbingly weak, mostly maintaining that the gods (elohim) in the verse were just men—Jewish elders—or that the verse was about the Trinity. I knew neither of those could be correct. Psalm 82 states that the gods were being condemned as corrupt in their administration of the nations of the earth. The Bible nowhere teaches that God appointed a council of Jewish elders to rule over foreign nations, and God certainly wouldn’t be railing against the rest of the Trinity, Jesus and the Spirit, for being corrupt. Frankly, the answers just weren’t honest with the straightforward words in the text of Psalm 82. When I looked beyond the world of evangelical scholarship, I discovered that other scholars had churned out dozens of articles and books on Psalm 82 and Israelite religion. They’d left no stone unturned in ferreting out parallels between the psalm and its ideas and the literature of other civilizations of the biblical world—in some cases, matching the psalm’s phrases word for word."

note: Michael Heiser is a noted Evangelical scholar.
First of all MH is not exactly relevant in the Christian church or the very most of Christians, in other words pretty much unknown or recognized by main stream Christianity and the very most have never even heard of him. He is noted in those that delve into the super natural. He is a scholar that LDS members, with God complex’s, have cherry picked, in support of their need to somehow justify they can become a God. So you’re saying a noted evangelical scholar is misleading, a fringe Evangelical scholar is probably a wiser choice of words. He obviously disagrees with mainstream Christianity In regards to our conversation.

Second, MH believe there are “divine beings,” apart from God and angels, and these are called elohim in the Psalm. He also believes these divine beings were created beings, and therefore can die (be uncreated) by their creator, and defiantly not literal sons. He is very Clear that he believes that YHWH (Yahweh) alone is God and El is not another God, but Yahweh. He is clear elohim is not a synonym for God…and certainly not the personal name of Yahweh father, in that Yahweh alone is God and there are no others.

Third, he rejects the way Mormons misquote him…and has made that clear. As you are doing here, as a lay Mormon, trying to support your God complex. one can simply go to his web site and type in Mormonism, and read what he has written about the church/people who misquote him. Below is one example he wrote a decade ago.

 
First of all MH is not exactly relevant in the Christian church or the very most of Christians
So, he's been voted out by the majority... Got it. See how that works? A born again Christian might find himself "not relevant" if he falls out of line. That's a pretty brutal religion you all have.
 
So, he's been voted out by the majority... Got it. See how that works? A born again Christian might find himself "not relevant" if he falls out of line. That's a pretty brutal religion you all have.
LOL, there are many false teachers and confused teachers…or he is just wrong. BoJ…you sit here and fight with Aaron…and then say that…LOL….
 
LOL, there are many false teachers and confused teachers…or he is just wrong. BoJ…you sit here and fight with Aaron…and then say that…LOL….
Chuckle... we don't even know if Aaron is a Mormon... seem like BOJ has issues that agree with our faith and Aaron has issues that disagree. Guess you have not been following the debate and then you comment out of cluelessness.. hmmm
 
LOL, there are many false teachers and confused teachers
Yes. I agree. I group you as being among them.
or he is just wrong.
or, he is just right.
you sit here and fight with Aaron…and then say that…LOL….
LOL. What has that got to do with anything? You guys are the ones throwing your own under the bus. It just seems odd that in a Christian organization where God does all the work and everyone is saved, it seems odd that you'd be throwing each other under the bus. Think about that for a minute. It appears that you guys can't agree on many things.

I think Heiser presents an interesting point that there are, in fact, many gods and that God attends council meetings with them in attendance - or so the Bible says (assuming you all believe the Bible. That's a problem for you all. It doesn't cause us any problems at all.
 
First of all MH is not exactly relevant in the Christian church or the very most of Christians, in other words pretty much unknown or recognized by main stream Christianity and the very most have never even heard of him. He is noted in those that delve into the super natural. He is a scholar that LDS members, with God complex’s, have cherry picked, in support of their need to somehow justify they can become a God. So you’re saying a noted evangelical scholar is misleading, a fringe Evangelical scholar is probably a wiser choice of words. He obviously disagrees with mainstream Christianity In regards to our conversation.

Most scholars take the position Michael Heiser does--as to the gods of Psalm82:1 being real, heavenly, divine gods, in ancient Israel. That includes the Biblical writers.

Second, MH believe there are “divine beings,” apart from God and angels,

Those "divine beings" are gods.

and these are called elohim in the Psalm. He also believes these divine beings were created beings, and therefore can die (be uncreated) by their creator,

Please do give us your evidence that death is being uncreated.

and defiantly not literal sons.

The scriptures testify they were gods and sons of the Most High:

Psalm 82:6---English Standard Version
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
 
Most scholars take the position Michael Heiser does--as to the gods of Psalm82:1 being real, heavenly, divine gods, in ancient Israel. That includes the Biblical writers.



Those "divine beings" are gods.



Please do give us your evidence that death is being uncreated.



The scriptures testify they were gods and sons of the Most High:

Psalm 82:6---English Standard Version
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
Great response dberrie..... (y) :p ? ???
 
Most scholars take the position Michael Heiser does--as to the gods of Psalm82:1 being real, heavenly, divine gods, in ancient Israel. That includes the Biblical writers.

dberrie ignores the Mormon faux Apostle and accepts Michael Heiser's interesting :)
invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16 James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
Those "divine beings" are gods.



Please do give us your evidence that death is being uncreated.



The scriptures testify they were gods and sons of the Most High:

Psalm 82:6---English Standard Version
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
 
invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16 James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.

Good morning Elijah!

Scholarship which is a century old isn't going to carry the day for you--or anyone who occupies the position the critics claim here.

The fact is--even the Biblical translators have changed their position:

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 1995
1 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 2020

God takes His position in His assembly;
He judges in the midst of the gods.

So--care to address that? An appeal the James Talmage and 100 year old scholarship won't help your cause.
 
Good morning Elijah!

Scholarship which is a century old isn't going to carry the day for you--or anyone who occupies the position the critics claim here.

The fact is--even the Biblical translators have changed their position:

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 1995
1 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 2020

God takes His position in His assembly;
He judges in the midst of the gods.

So--care to address that? An appeal the James Talmage and 100 year old scholarship won't help your cause.
:)It's interesting how you teach we can't trust century-old scholarships and then quote a 3000-year-old scholarship:)
 
:)It's interesting how you teach we can't trust century-old scholarships and then quote a 3000-year-old scholarship:)
No one has claimed that the Bible is a scholarly work. You, I believe, think it's perfect/inerrant. Care to address the current scholarship? They, apparently, believe the earlier scholars misunderstood the inerrant, non-scholarly, word of God.
 
:)It's interesting how you teach we can't trust century-old scholarships and then quote a 3000-year-old scholarship:)

The translation was 2020--three years old:

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 2020
God takes His position in His assembly;
He judges in the midst of the gods.

Which is quite a change from the 1995 translation:

Psalm 82:1---New American Standard Bible 1995
1 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.

My point is if that much can change in just 25 years--100 year old scholarship may be obsolete.
 
As a point of information, I just read on Facebook a post by Dr. Heiser. He is in stage four pancreatic cancer and is slowly bleeding out. Docs can do nothing else for him. He has elected to return home and said in his post he has one to two weeks to live.The post was made by Gretchen Taylor Bailey in the Facebook Group "The MArkings" of our Bibles, our Faith,& our Fellowship. It was posted an hour ago.
 
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