The gospel in Genesis.

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
I love how heretics always resort to the double negative, instead of even attempting to prove the positive doctrine.

In effect, this is an argument from silence, which is fallacious.

Scripture says we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Do dead people have a "choice" to become alive?

Scripture says we are "slaves to sin". Do slaves have a "choice" to be free? (Maybe the Civil war was unnecessary?)

Jesus taught that "no man can come to Him", if the Father didn't draw him.
Does that sound like someone can "choose" to come to Him?
Amen Brother! I think they look at the fall as a time out, we're not that bad, we're good people.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Agreed!
And I have no issue talking with him or anyone else about these things. But leave out the, judging me because I’m a Calvinist. That’s not the makings of good discussions.
I am the ugly Calvinist who eats little kids, and terrorize villagers. I am Baba Yaga! Just kidding, being silly.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I love how heretics always resort to the double negative, instead of even attempting to prove the positive doctrine.

In effect, this is an argument from silence, which is fallacious.

Scripture says we are "dead in trespasses and sins". Do dead people have a "choice" to become alive?

Scripture says we are "slaves to sin". Do slaves have a "choice" to be free? (Maybe the Civil war was unnecessary?)

Jesus taught that "no man can come to Him", if the Father didn't draw him.
Does that sound like someone can "choose" to come to Him?
Well lets see what a dead man can do

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

Joe

Well-known member
What do you mean by application? This is written to believers not unbelievers. The application is discerning the heart and revealing it to us. God’s work in our sanctification and conforming us to the image of Christ.
When I say universal application, I mean that it applies universally not to just to one group. God’s Word is alive and active, getting right to our heart, exposing the very thoughts and intent. This applies to both saved and unsaved. Why? Because God's Word is alive and active! It does not matter if the hearer is unbelieving, God's Word is still alive and active.
Why would God discern the intentions and thoughts of the unsaved heart? How are the unsaved striving to enter rest in Christ?
Hebrews 4:11,
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
I agree that it was written to believers, and I also agree it is to reveal our heart to us. But God’s Word is not only for sanctification and conformation, but for preaching to the lost that they too may have the sin of their heart exposed, and that is why we preach repent and be saved. God’s Word is alive and active no matter what...that is my point. We were born again by the Living and active Word of God. We were in unbelief and it exposed our sin.

You seem fixated that God’s Word is only alive and active only to the believer, and this is not the case. And this is the reason why I asked you, “Are you saying if it is an unbeliever God's Word is not living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart? And that an unbeliever is excluded from His sight, not naked and exposed, and will not give an account?”…Please answer.

Didn’t the Word of God get spoken to the Israelite's before crossing the river Jordan? How did they respond except for a few? In unbelief. They were given God’s Word and did not believe, so unbelievers were given God’s Word that is alive and active, and they did not trust God. Did God’s Word fail to be alive and active? No. What happened? The people failed to trust God.

Again, the epistle is to believers. But no where in scripture does it teach what you are trying to say.
Yes, I know it is, but God's word is always alive and active is it not?

And what am I trying to say Carbon?
No comment.

I will say however, what your trying to explain by taking the passage out of context is a form of prevenient grace. Which has no part in it.
The writer of Hebrews used 12-13 as a was warning to the believers not to fall into disobedience like the unbelieving Jews of Moses day. Please understand verses 12-13 is universal application, in that ALL must give an account before God. When God’s Word is preached it cuts through and exposes our sin. As Jesus told Nicodemus, those who love the darkness will not come into the light because their deeds are evil…These are the ones who heard and disbelieve because they love the darkness. It is not that God’s Word was dead and inactive, not exposing their sinful thoughts and intents. It is that they reject it for the love of sin. But those who do what is right come into the light to show they are doing what God wants…These are believers.

And no, I’m not taking the passage out of context. The writer of Hebrews used it as a universal application that ALL must give an account before God. This is believers and unbelievers alike.

So when is God’s Word not alive and active? Please answer. I’m quite sure you know the correct answer and it will end the debate.

God bless
 

eternomade

Well-known member
This is an interesting observation, and one which seems to align with Paul's comments that through Adam sin entered the world, and likewise, through Christ we have redemption. It does seem a bit lopsided for all of fallen humanity to be damned through the fault of one person regardless of what one does or not while only those who do the right thing can possibly be saved.
I've been reading through John a lot lately. I see he makes many two sided distinctions. Darkness and light etc.

Men love the darkness rather than the light. John 6 and John 10 both stand out to me showing God's Sovereignty in salvation. I think it's amazing.

I see the gospel as a story. It's who Jesus is and what He accomplished. I understand that before time the Father elected a people in Christ to save. The Word was made flesh, born of a virgin with the purpose of establishing a righteousness and atoning for all the sin of those the Father gave Him. He then sent the Holy Spirit to regenerate those who are in Christ, revealing their justification by faith and repentance of dead works. This is how I understand the Gospel.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
When I say universal application, I mean that it applies universally not to just to one group. God’s Word is alive and active, getting right to our heart, exposing the very thoughts and intent. This applies to both saved and unsaved. Why? Because God's Word is alive and active! It does not matter if the hearer is unbelieving, God's Word is still alive and active.
Of course God’s word is active and alive Joe, I agree.
your just using the passage out of context imo.
I agree that it was written to believers, and I also agree it is to reveal our heart to us. But God’s Word is not only for sanctification and conformation,
Good I’m glad you agree here, as I thought you would.
but for preaching to the lost that they too may have the sin of their heart exposed,

and that is why we preach repent and be saved.
That’s what we are told to preach, why wouldn’t we?
God’s Word is alive and active no matter what...that is my point.
Of course. And God talks to His people through the word.
We were born again by the Living and active Word of God. We were in unbelief and it exposed our sin.
We were born again be the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. When the new heart hears the word, he believes.
You seem fixated that God’s Word is only alive and active only to the believer, and this is not the case.
Depends on what passages your using actually. When Jesus said, I lay down my life for the sheep, that wasn’t to the reprobate, although they may here it.
And this is the reason why I asked you, “Are you saying if it is an unbeliever God's Word is not living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart?
Joe, read it in context, for what it says, try not to let your theology seep in.
And that an unbeliever is excluded from His sight, not naked and exposed, and will not give an account?”…Please answer.
No one is hidden from His sight, He’s God. And yes the reprobate are accountable. But again Joe, that’s not the context.
Didn’t the Word of God get spoken to the Israelite's before crossing the river Jordan? How did they respond except for a few? In unbelief. They were given God’s Word and did not believe, so unbelievers were given God’s Word that is alive and active, and they did not trust God. Did God’s Word fail to be alive and active? No. What happened? The people failed to trust God.
The ones that listened were God’s sheep obviously.
Yes, I know it is, but God's word is always alive and active is it not?
Scripture says so.
And what am I trying to say Carbon?
Your trying to say prevenient grace is scriptural.
The writer of Hebrews used 12-13 as a was warning to the believers not to fall into disobedience like the unbelieving Jews of Moses day.

Please understand verses 12-13 is universal application, in that ALL must give an account before God.
Of course. And it is expressing who God is.
When God’s Word is preached it cuts through and exposes our sin.

As Jesus told Nicodemus, those who love the darkness will not come into the light because their deeds are evil…These are the ones who heard and disbelieve because they love the darkness.
I don’t disagree.
It is not that God’s Word was dead and inactive,
Why do you keep stressing this? I never said it was. 🤔
not exposing their sinful thoughts and intents. It is that they reject it for the love of sin. But those who do what is right come into the light to show they are doing what God wants…These are believers.
I’ll pass on this for now.
And no, I’m not taking the passage out of context. The writer of Hebrews used it as a universal application that ALL must give an account before God. This is believers and unbelievers alike.
Well at least your changing your story.
I agree with that.
So when is God’s Word not alive and active? Please answer. I’m quite sure you know the correct answer and it will end the debate.

God bless
Joe, I’m not concerned with ending the debate. I don’t really see a debate. I just stated some facts and you can agree or disagree.
If you would like to keep discussing this, I’m fine with that also
 

Joe

Well-known member
Of course God’s word is active and alive Joe, I agree.
your just using the passage out of context imo.

Good I’m glad you agree here, as I thought you would.



That’s what we are told to preach, why wouldn’t we?

Of course. And God talks to His people through the word.

We were born again be the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. When the new heart hears the word, he believes.

Depends on what passages your using actually. When Jesus said, I lay down my life for the sheep, that wasn’t to the reprobate, although they may here it.

Joe, read it in context, for what it says, try not to let your theology seep in.

No one is hidden from His sight, He’s God. And yes the reprobate are accountable. But again Joe, that’s not the context.

The ones that listened were God’s sheep obviously.

Scripture says so.

Your trying to say prevenient grace is scriptural.



Of course. And it is expressing who God is.



I don’t disagree.

Why do you keep stressing this? I never said it was. 🤔

I’ll pass on this for now.

Well at least your changing your story.
I agree with that.

Joe, I’m not concerned with ending the debate. I don’t really see a debate. I just stated some facts and you can agree or disagree.
If you would like to keep discussing this, I’m fine with that also
Brother, I have not changed my story. You are now beginning to realize what I meant after I responded to your posts. You are not there yet.

And God does not only communicate to believers as you suggested. He talks to ALL people, believers and unbelievers alike.

And I will answer the question asked of you; God's Word is never dead nor inactive. That ends the debate. 12-13 is universal in application, in that no matter who you are or your salvation status, God's Word when preached will invoke a response because it is living and active, exposing the thoughts and intent of the heart. And that is why we preach it, as I originally said which sparked you to debate. You argued it was for believers only, and it is not.

I hope you understand and agree with the Apostle Peter that you were "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever."

I have adequately proven that God's Word is alive and active no matter one's status of salvation. And that because it is such, it will invoke a response one way or another within the hearer, belief or unbelief. And we are to preach it indiscriminately so all can hear and perhaps believe.

Thank you for the civil discourse. It can get ugly on the board once in while!

God bless
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Of course God’s word is active and alive Joe, I agree.
your just using the passage out of context imo.

Good I’m glad you agree here, as I thought you would.



That’s what we are told to preach, why wouldn’t we?

Of course. And God talks to His people through the word.

We were born again be the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. When the new heart hears the word, he believes.

Depends on what passages your using actually. When Jesus said, I lay down my life for the sheep, that wasn’t to the reprobate, although they may here it.

Joe, read it in context, for what it says, try not to let your theology seep in.

No one is hidden from His sight, He’s God. And yes the reprobate are accountable. But again Joe, that’s not the context.

The ones that listened were God’s sheep obviously.

Scripture says so.

Your trying to say prevenient grace is scriptural.



Of course. And it is expressing who God is.



I don’t disagree.

Why do you keep stressing this? I never said it was. 🤔

I’ll pass on this for now.

Well at least your changing your story.
I agree with that.

Joe, I’m not concerned with ending the debate. I don’t really see a debate. I just stated some facts and you can agree or disagree.
If you would like to keep discussing this, I’m fine with that also
Ask him, if God's word is alive and active in everyone. Why do people reject it while others trust and believe it.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Ask him, if God's word is alive and active in everyone. Why do people reject it while others trust and believe it.
They chose to

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV)
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
 

Joe

Well-known member
Ask him, if God's word is alive and active in everyone. Why do people reject it while others trust and believe it.
So you are saying God's Word is dead and inactive at times. Interesting. That is not true of course, but you can continue to believe such an error if you like.

So is God's Word alive and active all the time or just sometimes?...I'll answer for you since you will not. God's Word is always alive and active. Always! No matter what, always! No matter if it goes into an unbelieving heart, God's Word still is alive and active, exposing the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And to answer your question, the same one that has been answered before multiple times, people reject while others believe because they refuse the truth...It's in the bible brother.

God bless
 

Manfred

Well-known member
To be a Calvinist I would have to believe that God is unjust condemning people to hell for His own good pleasure.
What does for His own good pleasure mean to someone like you.
You think it is an earthly pleasure you delight in do you?

If that is how you view God and His scriptures then you are far away from Him.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Do you suppose God experienced some kind of delight when all the first born of Egypt were killed..

You are shouting injustice.....
Paul says there is no injustice!
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

So tell us after your rant, those who go to hell, did God choose to have mercy and compassion on them? The answer is of course not.
You can then shout, but it is because they chose not to believe and not because God did not choose to save them. The answer of course is that it does not depend on human free will choices nor exertion but on God who has mercy.

Why do you not believe the Bible and claim you follow only what is taught by Jesus and Paul?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Brother, I have not changed my story. You are now beginning to realize what I meant after I responded to your posts. You are not there yet.
Joe, I have no desire to go over the points discussed since we started this discussion again and again. If you want to believe that the passage in Hebrews was written to everyone including the unbelievers and reprobate, I’m fine with that. I still stand on what I said.
And God does not only communicate to believers as you suggested. He talks to ALL people, believers and unbelievers alike.
Since you insist on this point, and I’m not saying, your wrong Joe, then show me a passage where it teaches such. I believe He will talk to all people, judgement is coming and there is divine providence. But scripture, is written to believers. When the words brethren, loved of God, chosen are used its even more obvious.

And I will answer the question asked of you; God's Word is never dead nor inactive.
Are you mixing me up with someone else? Why do you insist on repeating yourself here? When did I say it was? This is a good hump for you to get over before we proceed, if proceeding is your intention.
That ends the debate.
If your argument is God’s word being alive and active then there never was a debate. Maybe your debating with yourself? If you read my posts you would see I don’t disagree with this point.
12-13 is universal in application, in that no matter who you are or your salvation status, God's Word when preached will invoke a response because it is living and active, exposing the thoughts and intent of the heart.
And you continue to stress your point. Every believe would agree God’s word is alive and active. But the passage you picked is to believers. It is not to unbelievers. Again, read Hebrews in context, start at ch 3 concerning the point your trying to prove. I’ll start you out:

Hebrews 3:1,
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,


And that is why we preach it, as I originally said which sparked you to debate. You argued it was for believers only, and it is not.
I believe two things are happening here Joe.
1) your missing my point. Since you are a free willer, I can understand why you would be stressing certain points.
2) I understand why you are so persistent. It’s another avenue where free willers, at least the thinkers like yourself, believe they can set the grounds for prevenient grace.
I hope you understand and agree with the Apostle Peter that you were "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever."
Thanks Joe, yes I do. But read 1 Peter again Joe. Your missing the whole point of it. The gospel is the power of salvation …… Which is to be proclaimed to the world.
The believers are taught, warned and built up by the word of God throughout scripture, it’s one reason scripture was written.
I have adequately proven that God's Word is alive and active no matter one's status of salvation.
No one denies that Joe.
And that because it is such, it will invoke a response one way or another within the hearer, belief or unbelief. And we are to preach it indiscriminately so all can hear and perhaps believe.
Do you think scripture that points out to who it is written to don’t mean what it says? There are just to many places to quote. But here is one:
1 Peter 1:1,
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Would you show me how this is written to unbelievers as well?

Thank you for the civil discourse. It can get ugly on the board once in while!

God bless
Yes it can get ugly. And thank you as well.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
What does for His own good pleasure mean to someone like you.
You think it is an earthly pleasure you delight in do you?

If that is how you view God and His scriptures then you are far away from Him.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Do you suppose God experienced some kind of delight when all the first born of Egypt were killed..

You are shouting injustice.....
Paul says there is no injustice!
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

So tell us after your rant, those who go to hell, did God choose to have mercy and compassion on them? The answer is of course not.
You can then shout, but it is because they chose not to believe and not because God did not choose to save them. The answer of course is that it does not depend on human free will choices nor exertion but on God who has mercy.

Why do you not believe the Bible and claim you follow only what is taught by Jesus and Paul?
I don’t ignore what Jesus and Paul taught to follow men who claim to follow Christ and ignore what He taught. The point was that God is never unjust in anything He does. Everyone that ends up in hell had the same gift ( salvation) offered to them as those who end up in heaven. Is it God’s fault men reject God ? I believe all of the Bible not just the parts that support false doctrines and beliefs. Scripture says God is long suffering not willing that any should perish so what does that mean to you ? If someone goes to hell that is not God’s fault because He provided a way for them NOT to be condemned to hell.
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
I don’t ignore what Jesus and Paul taught to follow men who claim to follow Christ and ignore what He taught. The point was that God is never unjust in anything He does. Everyone that ends up in hell had the same gift ( salvation) offered to them as those who end up in heaven. Is it God’s fault men reject God ? I believe all of the Bible not just the parts that support false doctrines and beliefs. Scripture says God is long suffering not willing that any should perish so what does that mean to you ? If someone goes to hell that is not God’s fault because He provided a way for them NOT to be condemned to hell.
Like civic says. Burger King theology. Have it your way. 😎
 

fltom

Well-known member
I don’t ignore what Jesus and Paul taught to follow men who claim to follow Christ and ignore what He taught. The point was that God is never unjust in anything He does. Everyone that ends up in hell had the same gift ( salvation) offered to them as those who end up in heaven. Is it God’s fault men reject God ? I believe all of the Bible not just the parts that support false doctrines and beliefs. Scripture says God is long suffering not willing that any should perish so what does that mean to you ? If someone goes to hell that is not God’s fault because He provided a way for them NOT to be condemned to hell.
Amen

Some however seem to be threatened by such truth
 
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