The gospel in Genesis.

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
This assumption and belief of yours is what's dead, and ineffective. It accomplishes nothing, though the oxymoron is that you call it alive & active. This has always been our position, that God's Grace is effectual in its purpose, not irresistible for God's elect. It is Alive and Active this is one point I agree with you, but I disagree with you that it accomplishes nothing.

So, I'll ask you again, why does Grace precede Faith? If you seek the truth, you will not be ashamed, because it's what I seek, not winning a debate.

Joe do you really read and try to understand our posts??? We believe all of this, and this is what we have been saying. But where differ, is we believe it's effectual because it is alive and active, you guys on the other hand say it's alive and "ACTIVE", but accomplishes nothing. And I know you will disagree with me a course, but you cannot refute Scripture, you can try, with futile efforts.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”


You answered, but addressed nothing. Why do they refuse? The Bible answers this questions, friend.

John 10:25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.
You do know who Jesus was addressing when He made those remarks right ? This has zero to do with anyone accept the Jews who should have known about their coming Messiah and yet you give it universal application and place all mankind under what Jesus specifically addressed to the JEWS. Jesus was addressing the ones He said He personally told and who rejected Him.
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Jhn 10:24 - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him,How long dost thou make us to doubt?If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

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Jhn 10:25 - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name,they bear witness of me.

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Jhn 10:26 - But ye believe not,because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

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Jhn 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

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Jhn 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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Jhn 10:29 - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of myFather's hand.

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Jhn 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

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Jhn 10:31 - Then the Jews took up-stones again to stone him.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
This is why I keep asking you about your view on the Fall. After the Fall all mankind fell into darkness and sin. So, in the first Adam we are in bondage to darkness and sin and will always resist God. The heart of stone needs to be made alive, and our futile minds need to be renewed. Therefore, this can only be accomplished by a Divine Act of Grace to the undeserved.​
Some don’t want to hear the truth. Talking to the tree in the back yard, you’ll probably have better results.
 

fltom

Well-known member
This is why I keep asking you about your view on the Fall. After the Fall all mankind fell into darkness and sin. So, in the first Adam we are in bondage to darkness and sin and will always resist God. The heart of stone needs to be made alive, and our futile minds need to be renewed. Therefore, this can only be accomplished by a Divine Act of Grace to the undeserved.​
Conviction

Faith

then regeneration
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So You believe Jesus lied in John 3;16 when He said,” for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes shall not perish but have ever lasting life” ?
No. Why ask such an utter stupid question.
Why not respond to my rebuttal point by point.

Whosoever believes means in your warped Theology that it refers to anyone who chooses to believe.
That is of course against scripture. But you choose to ignore the scripture that says it is not by the will of man or by man's choice.
God is not the author of confusion and there were times God predetermined outcomes so does those predetermined events make null and void what Jesus taught in John 3:16 ?
Your false interpretation of scripture like John 3:16 based on emotion and irrationality is what makes you think God is confused.
You still deny that God creates vessels for destruction for His glory. That is on you, and because you deny the clear word of God you condemn yourself before God.
You have made scripture contradict itself and it doesn’t.
No I have not. Scripture does not contradict itself. Your emotional biases and eisegesis causes you to contradict scripture.

You would rather deny God than deny your free will. You have been doing it all along.
You read John 3:16 through the lens of God will have mercy and compassion on those who freely choose to use their will and exertion to exercise faith.

In doing this, you willfully deny the sovereignty of God and you contradict scripture which you falsely accuse me of.

If you truly believed that scripture does not contradict itself, then it would be impossible for you to reconcile your belief that God has mercy and compassion because all who use their human will to come to Jesus shall be saved.
Your interpretation contradicts what God said!
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
God predetermined the events and prophecies concerning Jesus’ birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection do you believe that was a one time event or do you suppose because God acted the way He did concerning Jesus will be repeated over and over and over ?
Why do you presume and ask such stupid questions.
Do you truly believe only the birth of Jesus was predetermined!
You are truly reading the Bible with blinders of self worship on.
Here is another example:
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
I do not place God in the box that many have basically thinking they know exactly what God has to do based on their finite reasoning. God is bigger than any box men repeatedly try to put Him in.
I can see that you place God in the self will edification and glorification box that you have built for yourself.

You keep shaking your fist at God and shouting INJUSTICE!
 

Manfred

Well-known member
This assumption and belief of yours is what's dead, and ineffective. It accomplishes nothing, though the oxymoron is that you call it alive & active. This has always been our position, that God's Grace is effectual in its purpose, not irresistible for God's elect. It is Alive and Active this is one point I agree with you, but I disagree with you that it accomplishes nothing.

So, I'll ask you again, why does Grace precede Faith? If you seek the truth, you will not be ashamed, because it's what I seek, not winning a debate.

Joe do you really read and try to understand our posts??? We believe all of this, and this is what we have been saying. But where differ, is we believe it's effectual because it is alive and active, you guys on the other hand say it's alive and "ACTIVE", but accomplishes nothing. And I know you will disagree with me a course, but you cannot refute Scripture, you can try, with futile efforts.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”


You answered, but addressed nothing. Why do they refuse? The Bible answers this questions, friend.

John 10:25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.
I commend you for your obedience to the leading of the Spirit of God.
Good post, and the truth cannot be refuted.
All these claims that "goats" hear His voice and understand/believe and then choose to not believe is such an oxymoron. [I believe in you Jesus but I choose to reject you] The glorifying of self blinds these to the truths within scripture.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
No. Why ask such an utter stupid question.
Why not respond to my rebuttal point by point.

Whosoever believes means in your warped Theology that it refers to anyone who chooses to believe.
That is of course against scripture. But you choose to ignore the scripture that says it is not by the will of man or by man's choice.

Your false interpretation of scripture like John 3:16 based on emotion and irrationality is what makes you think God is confused.
You still deny that God creates vessels for destruction for His glory. That is on you, and because you deny the clear word of God you condemn yourself before God.

No I have not. Scripture does not contradict itself. Your emotional biases and eisegesis causes you to contradict scripture.

You would rather deny God than deny your free will. You have been doing it all along.
You read John 3:16 through the lens of God will have mercy and compassion on those who freely choose to use their will and exertion to exercise faith.

In doing this, you willfully deny the sovereignty of God and you contradict scripture which you falsely accuse me of.

If you truly believed that scripture does not contradict itself, then it would be impossible for you to reconcile your belief that God has mercy and compassion because all who use their human will to come to Jesus shall be saved.
Your interpretation contradicts what God said!
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Why do you presume and ask such stupid questions.
Do you truly believe only the birth of Jesus was predetermined!
You are truly reading the Bible with blinders of self worship on.
Here is another example:
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

I can see that you place God in the self will edification and glorification box that you have built for yourself.

You keep shaking your fist at God and shouting INJUSTICE!
I am on an iPhone which does not let me use the quote function How do you square your belief that God has chosen some for hell when that directly contradicts the following scripture ?
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2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance Many perish but scripture clearly says that is NOT God’s will. Men perish when they reject the truth of God in Christ Jesus and love their sin more than God.God is not confused folks who make scripture contradict other scriptures are confused.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I am on an iPhone which does not let me use the quote function How do you square your belief that God has chosen some for hell when that directly contradicts the following scripture ?
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2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance Many perish but scripture clearly says that is NOT God’s will. Men perish when they reject the truth of God in Christ Jesus and live their sin more than God.God is not confused folks who make scripture contradict other scriptures are confused.
The Parable of the Landlord and the Vinedresser is taught to be God the Father's sentiments toward Israel, and God the Son's sentiments toward Israel. The Father wanted to BURN them, but the Son wanted to DUNG them...

So in one sense, it IS the Will of the Father that SOME perish, and it's the Will of the Son that NONE perish...

Right?

Are you mad at me?
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
The Parable of the Landlord and the Vinedresser is taught to be God the Father's sentiments toward Israel, and God the Son's sentiments toward Israel. The Father wanted to BURN them, but the Son wanted to DUNG them...

So in one sense, it IS the Will of the Father that SOME perish, and it's the Will of the Son that NONE perish...

Right?

Are you mad at me?
Nope I am not mad at you. I only get side ways when someone lies and then shuffles backwards when asked for a post# or quote of supposed statement I made, which of course they could not produce because it never happened. I posted a scripture that specifically said it is NOT the will of God that any should perish. Do you have a scripture that specifically says it is God’s will that some perish ?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I am on an iPhone which does not let me use the quote function How do you square your belief that God has chosen some for hell when that directly contradicts the following scripture ?
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2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance
I already answered this.
It shows you are not reading and not interested.

If you were truly interested you would look at the following context.
Peter is in conversation with Christians who are "complaining" about Christs return and why it is taking so long.
He admonishes them regarding the promise of Christs return and says He is not slack as you count slackness, The elect in Peters lifetime up to today would not perish, but in time come to repentance.

The scripture has nothing to do with all men being saved, or God wanting all men to be saved but rather with all the elect being saved in time.

God does not contradict Himself.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” does not mean God wants every person to come to repentance and not perish.
You want to make it sound as if God cannot/is not able to do what He wills, but God is dependent on the will of man.

Many perish but scripture clearly says that is NOT God’s will.
No, it does not. That is you reading scripture out of context thereby contradicting God
God will have mercy and compassion on who He wills, not on who you will. This is really not difficult to understand, but your ears and heart is closed to truth.
Men perish when they reject the truth of God in Christ Jesus and love their sin more than God.God is not confused folks who make scripture contradict other scriptures are confused.
I am not the one trying to contradict scripture.
You are continually trying to contradict God by denying that God's mercy does not depend on human will.
You did it again with what you wrote above.

Men perish and reject Christ because they are not His sheep.
The worship of self displayed on these pages day after day is frightening.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I am on an iPhone which does not let me use the quote function How do you square your belief that God has chosen some for hell when that directly contradicts the following scripture ?
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2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance
Easy, you don’t understand 1 Peter 3:9.
And it don’t fit for your argument,

Next. …
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Nope I am not mad at you. I only get side ways when someone lies and then shuffles backwards when asked for a post# or quote of supposed statement I made, which of course they could not produce because it never happened. I posted a scripture that specifically said it is NOT the will of God that any should perish. Do you have a scripture that specifically says it is God’s will that some perish ?
Your wrong in what you said about 1 Peter 3:9.

Next…
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
I already answered this.
It shows you are not reading and not interested.

If you were truly interested you would look at the following context.
Peter is in conversation with Christians who are "complaining" about Christs return and why it is taking so long.
He admonishes them regarding the promise of Christs return and says He is not slack as you count slackness, The elect in Peters lifetime up to today would not perish, but in time come to repentance.

The scripture has nothing to do with all men being saved, or God wanting all men to be saved but rather with all the elect being saved in time.

God does not contradict Himself.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” does not mean God wants every person to come to repentance and not perish.
You want to make it sound as if God cannot/is not able to do what He wills, but God is dependent on the will of man.


No, it does not. That is you reading scripture out of context thereby contradicting God
God will have mercy and compassion on who He wills, not on who you will. This is really not difficult to understand, but your ears and heart is closed to truth.

I am not the one trying to contradict scripture.
You are continually trying to contradict God by denying that God's mercy does not depend on human will.
You did it again with what you wrote above.

Men perish and reject Christ because they are not His sheep.
The worship of self displayed on these pages day after day is frightening.
Under your theology John 3:16 is meaningless as is Paul telling the jailer to be saved he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Act 16:30 - And brought them out,and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved.
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Act 16:31 - And they said, Believe-on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thoushalt be saved, and thy house.
The new and improved calvinist rendering of John 3:16 For God is completely indifferent toward some in the world so that He gave His only begotten Son that wether some believed or not God willed they spend eternity in hell. That my friend is not the God of scripture no matter how much you believe it. The correct John 3:16 says, “ for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son for whosoever believes will be saved.
Jhn 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;but that the world through him might be saved.

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Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Jhn 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Nope I am not mad at you. I only get side ways when someone lies and then shuffles backwards when asked for a post# or quote of supposed statement I made, which of course they could not produce because it never happened. I posted a scripture that specifically said it is NOT the will of God that any should perish. Do you have a scripture that specifically says it is God’s will that some perish ?
Yes, as in the Passage of the barren Fig Tree. The Landlord wanted to BURN the Tree; which, as God, is the Apple of his eye. But Jesus the Gardener wanted a year to DUNG the tree. This shows that God is Willing that some will perish...

For people who say that Lordship Salvation means we need fruit and shouldn't be barren, that means God is Willing an Antinomian should perish; right?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I am on an iPhone which does not let me use the quote function How do you square your belief that God has chosen some for hell when that directly contradicts the following scripture ?
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2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance Many perish but scripture clearly says that is NOT God’s will. Men perish when they reject the truth of God in Christ Jesus and love their sin more than God.God is not confused folks who make scripture contradict other scriptures are confused.
2Peter 3:9,
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Do you honestly believe that God is not willing that anyone with perish? Do you believe Peter is talking to the unsaved here, how God is being patient towards them not willing any to perish?

I believe it will do you good to read in context. First find out who this is written to. I’ll give you just one hint because I am trying to help you. 2Peter 3:8,
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved,………

It’s very disturbing that so many professed Christian’s treat God’s word as they do.
taking scripture out of context, reading and adding into it, especially in places where it explicitly states who it is to.

I hope you and @Joe will reconsider these things.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Under your theology John 3:16 is meaningless as is Paul telling the jailer to be saved he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Act 16:30 - And brought them out,and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved.
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Act 16:31 - And they said, Believe-on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thoushalt be saved, and thy house.
The new and improved calvinist rendering of John 3:16 For God is completely indifferent toward some in the world so that He gave His only begotten Son that wether some believed or not God willed they spend eternity in hell. That my friend is not the God of scripture no matter how much you believe it. The correct John 3:16 says, “ for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son for whosoever believes will be saved.
Jhn 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;but that the world through him might be saved.

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Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Jhn 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Would you like to go over John 3:16 in context?
Are there no verses before 16? Or do you just not like them?
 
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