The Gospel

Adam

Member
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died - in our place. Three days later he rose from the dead, proving he is the Son of God and offering the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins to anyone who repents and believes in him

The fact here is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is like a crime against God where you have broken his laws. All you need to do to know that you’ve transgressed his moral law is compare yourself with the 10 commandments (Romans 3:19-20). Ask yourself these questions: Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever looked at anyone with lust? Most people have committed these sins. Because we have broken God’s law, we deserve punishment. God is righteous and holy, and therefore cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. The punishment for our sins is eternal death in a place called hell (Romans 6:23). Hell is God’s prison and there’s no parole. The reason why our punishment is eternal is because God is infinitely good and holy. That means that our crimes against him are of cosmic proportions and therefore necessitates eternal punishment.

But God so loved the world that he didn’t want us to have to be separated from him for eternity (John 3:16; Romans 5:8-9). So, how does God remedy this problem of our sin? Well, God the Son became a man in the person of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). He lived a righteous life on our behalf and he willingly subjected himself to die on the cross for our sins (Philippians 2:6-8). While he was on the cross, he took the full wrath of God the Father on himself for the sins we’ve committed (1 Peter 2:24). This means he took the punishment due to us on himself; being punished in our place as atonement for our sins (Colossians 2:14). He was treated as if he was a sinner, yet he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22). He was treated as if he committed the sins of his people, yet he was without sin himself. He died as the substitute payment for the sins we’ve committed against God, satisfying God’s justice for all who would repent and trust in him (1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:18; John 1:11-12; 14:6). Jesus then rose from the dead three days later, which was not only the ultimate vindication of his claims, but it also demonstrated that the Father accepted the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

By trusting in Christ and repenting of your sins, you are not only forgiven or pardoned of all your sins, but you have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). Your sins are imputed to him and his righteousness is imputed to you. This satisfies God’s justice and the positive righteousness necessary for belonging in his kingdom. You can be granted eternal life as a gift by his grace through the redemption found only in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24). Salvation comes as the work of God by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:3-8; 5:1; 8:28-33). There is salvation in no one else (Acts 4:12). All you need to do is trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins (Romans 10:7-18). I urge you to do this and it’s my hope and prayer that you do.
 

J regia

Member
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died - in our place. Three days later he rose from the dead, proving he is the Son of God and offering the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins to anyone who repents and believes in him

The fact here is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is like a crime against God where you have broken his laws. All you need to do to know that you’ve transgressed his moral law is compare yourself with the 10 commandments (Romans 3:19-20). Ask yourself these questions: Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever looked at anyone with lust? Most people have committed these sins. Because we have broken God’s law, we deserve punishment. God is righteous and holy, and therefore cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. The punishment for our sins is eternal death in a place called hell (Romans 6:23). Hell is God’s prison and there’s no parole. The reason why our punishment is eternal is because God is infinitely good and holy. That means that our crimes against him are of cosmic proportions and therefore necessitates eternal punishment.

But God so loved the world that he didn’t want us to have to be separated from him for eternity (John 3:16; Romans 5:8-9). So, how does God remedy this problem of our sin? Well, God the Son became a man in the person of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). He lived a righteous life on our behalf and he willingly subjected himself to die on the cross for our sins (Philippians 2:6-8). While he was on the cross, he took the full wrath of God the Father on himself for the sins we’ve committed (1 Peter 2:24). This means he took the punishment due to us on himself; being punished in our place as atonement for our sins (Colossians 2:14). He was treated as if he was a sinner, yet he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22). He was treated as if he committed the sins of his people, yet he was without sin himself. He died as the substitute payment for the sins we’ve committed against God, satisfying God’s justice for all who would repent and trust in him (1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:18; John 1:11-12; 14:6). Jesus then rose from the dead three days later, which was not only the ultimate vindication of his claims, but it also demonstrated that the Father accepted the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

By trusting in Christ and repenting of your sins, you are not only forgiven or pardoned of all your sins, but you have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). Your sins are imputed to him and his righteousness is imputed to you. This satisfies God’s justice and the positive righteousness necessary for belonging in his kingdom. You can be granted eternal life as a gift by his grace through the redemption found only in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24). Salvation comes as the work of God by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:3-8; 5:1; 8:28-33). There is salvation in no one else (Acts 4:12). All you need to do is trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins (Romans 10:7-18). I urge you to do this and it’s my hope and prayer that you do.
But none of that has anything to do with the gospels and the gospel message. And is only Paul's religion, and given that Paul never even met Jesus.

If you believe otherwise, where do the gospels say that Jesus wanted to be executed by the Romans for sedition and falsely claiming to be the "King of the Jews" in order to pay for your crimes and so you could sin? And is that why Moses & Noah & Abraham & David never went to heaven (John 3:13) even though David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7)?

You know it makes sense.
 

Torin

Member
@Adam, I see that you joined yesterday. You explained the "Gospel message" clearly, but most of the posters here are familiar with it already. If you want a typical atheist to agree with you about the Gospel message, you will need to provide arguments or evidence that it is true and respond to the objections atheists have come up with. You have not done this.

If you're not familiar with atheist thought on this issue, I'd recommend visiting a website like infidels.org which provides free access to many scholarly articles by atheists.
 

docphin5

Member
The atheists on here are well informed about the claims of Christianity. Now all you have to do is make sense of them. I hope you have done your homework.
 

Adam

Member
But none of that has anything to do with the gospels and the gospel message. And is only Paul's religion, and given that Paul never even met Jesus.
Paul clearly states that he saw Jesus risen:

1 Corinthians 9:1, "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?"​
1 Corinthians 15:8, "and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."​

Paul’s encounter with Jesus is also recorded by Luke in the book of Acts:

Acts 22:6-11, “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.' Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me. And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.' And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.”​

In this passage, Paul is speaking to the Jews giving his testimony and defense of himself. Paul also gives his defense and testimony before King Agrippa and Governor Festus:

Acts 26:13-18, “At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.”​

As is clear both from Luke’s record in the book of Acts and Paul’s letters, it’s very clear that he met Jesus. Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus and that’s what caused him from being a persecutor of the Church to its most influential apostle.

If you believe otherwise, where do the gospels say that Jesus wanted to be executed by the Romans for sedition and falsely claiming to be the "King of the Jews" in order to pay for your crimes and so you could sin?
Here's what Jesus said about himself and his mission:

Mark 10:45, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."​

He came to give his life as a ransom for many, to save them (Matthew 1:21). He also said how he would save them, with his own death, which he predicted would take place at the hands of the Romans under the instigation of the Jewish leaders:

Mark 8:31, "And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."​
Mark 9:31, "For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."​
Mark 10:33-34, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."​

As we can see, Jesus was very clear about what his mission was. He would give his life as a ransom for many and predicted his death and resurrection multiple times before it happened. He came into this world to save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).
 

Adam

Member
@Adam, I see that you joined yesterday. You explained the "Gospel message" clearly, but most of the posters here are familiar with it already. If you want a typical atheist to agree with you about the Gospel message, you will need to provide arguments or evidence that it is true and respond to the objections atheists have come up with. You have not done this.

If you're not familiar with atheist thought on this issue, I'd recommend visiting a website like infidels.org which provides free access to many scholarly articles by atheists.
Torin, I am more than happy to provide arguments and respond to objections atheists have come up with. I can't respond to the objection though if you haven't presented it yet. If you look in this thread, I've already responded to J regia.
 

Adam

Member
The atheists on here are well informed about the claims of Christianity. Now all you have to do is make sense of them. I hope you have done your homework.
I've done a fair amount of reading. You say I need to make sense of them. Where do you want to start? I can't respond to any objection or question if you haven't presented it yet.
 

J regia

Member
The gospels don't say that Paul ever saw Jesus, and Acts 22:6-11 is just a metaphorical way of saying that Paul changed his mind, and doesn't mean that Paul had an in depth conversation with a bodyless voice in the sky.

And Jesus didn't say that he wanted to be executed by the Romans for sedition and falsely claiming to be the Jewish King because of your sins. Matt 1:21 is just an imaginative embellishment to the story, and given that his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't even believe him when he claimed to be a prophet (Matt 13:55-58 John 7:5).
 
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Tiburon

Member
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died - in our place. Three days later he rose from the dead, proving he is the Son of God and offering the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins to anyone who repents and believes in him

The fact here is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is like a crime against God where you have broken his laws. All you need to do to know that you’ve transgressed his moral law is compare yourself with the 10 commandments (Romans 3:19-20). Ask yourself these questions: Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever looked at anyone with lust? Most people have committed these sins. Because we have broken God’s law, we deserve punishment. God is righteous and holy, and therefore cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. The punishment for our sins is eternal death in a place called hell (Romans 6:23). Hell is God’s prison and there’s no parole. The reason why our punishment is eternal is because God is infinitely good and holy. That means that our crimes against him are of cosmic proportions and therefore necessitates eternal punishment.

But God so loved the world that he didn’t want us to have to be separated from him for eternity (John 3:16; Romans 5:8-9). So, how does God remedy this problem of our sin? Well, God the Son became a man in the person of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). He lived a righteous life on our behalf and he willingly subjected himself to die on the cross for our sins (Philippians 2:6-8). While he was on the cross, he took the full wrath of God the Father on himself for the sins we’ve committed (1 Peter 2:24). This means he took the punishment due to us on himself; being punished in our place as atonement for our sins (Colossians 2:14). He was treated as if he was a sinner, yet he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22). He was treated as if he committed the sins of his people, yet he was without sin himself. He died as the substitute payment for the sins we’ve committed against God, satisfying God’s justice for all who would repent and trust in him (1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:18; John 1:11-12; 14:6). Jesus then rose from the dead three days later, which was not only the ultimate vindication of his claims, but it also demonstrated that the Father accepted the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

By trusting in Christ and repenting of your sins, you are not only forgiven or pardoned of all your sins, but you have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). Your sins are imputed to him and his righteousness is imputed to you. This satisfies God’s justice and the positive righteousness necessary for belonging in his kingdom. You can be granted eternal life as a gift by his grace through the redemption found only in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24). Salvation comes as the work of God by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:3-8; 5:1; 8:28-33). There is salvation in no one else (Acts 4:12). All you need to do is trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins (Romans 10:7-18). I urge you to do this and it’s my hope and prayer that you do.
Why should we believe any of this? Apart from some people finding it to be a comforting story?
What makes you think Christianity is more plausible than any other religion?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died - in our place. Three days later he rose from the dead, proving he is the Son of God and offering the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins to anyone who repents and believes in him

The fact here is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is like a crime against God where you have broken his laws. All you need to do to know that you’ve transgressed his moral law is compare yourself with the 10 commandments (Romans 3:19-20). Ask yourself these questions: Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever looked at anyone with lust? Most people have committed these sins. Because we have broken God’s law, we deserve punishment. God is righteous and holy, and therefore cannot allow any sin to go unpunished. The punishment for our sins is eternal death in a place called hell (Romans 6:23). Hell is God’s prison and there’s no parole. The reason why our punishment is eternal is because God is infinitely good and holy. That means that our crimes against him are of cosmic proportions and therefore necessitates eternal punishment.

But God so loved the world that he didn’t want us to have to be separated from him for eternity (John 3:16; Romans 5:8-9). So, how does God remedy this problem of our sin? Well, God the Son became a man in the person of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). He lived a righteous life on our behalf and he willingly subjected himself to die on the cross for our sins (Philippians 2:6-8). While he was on the cross, he took the full wrath of God the Father on himself for the sins we’ve committed (1 Peter 2:24). This means he took the punishment due to us on himself; being punished in our place as atonement for our sins (Colossians 2:14). He was treated as if he was a sinner, yet he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22). He was treated as if he committed the sins of his people, yet he was without sin himself. He died as the substitute payment for the sins we’ve committed against God, satisfying God’s justice for all who would repent and trust in him (1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:18; John 1:11-12; 14:6). Jesus then rose from the dead three days later, which was not only the ultimate vindication of his claims, but it also demonstrated that the Father accepted the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

By trusting in Christ and repenting of your sins, you are not only forgiven or pardoned of all your sins, but you have Christ’s righteousness credited to your account (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). Your sins are imputed to him and his righteousness is imputed to you. This satisfies God’s justice and the positive righteousness necessary for belonging in his kingdom. You can be granted eternal life as a gift by his grace through the redemption found only in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24). Salvation comes as the work of God by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:3-8; 5:1; 8:28-33). There is salvation in no one else (Acts 4:12). All you need to do is trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins (Romans 10:7-18). I urge you to do this and it’s my hope and prayer that you do.
The Gospel proclaims that Christ death actually saves them He died for.
 

The Pixie

Active member
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died - in our place. Three days later he rose from the dead, proving he is the Son of God and offering the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins to anyone who repents and believes in him
You say "died the death we should have died". Do you think everyone deserves to be executed by crucifixion? That seems a little harsh. Do you have children? Do you honestly believe they deserve to be crucified?

According to most gospels it was two days later that Jesus rose. What makes you think they are wrong?

Why is God's "gift" conditional? That sounds more like merchandise that he is willing to trade in return for something.

The fact here is that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Sin is like a crime against God where you have broken his laws. All you need to do to know that you’ve transgressed his moral law is compare yourself with the 10 commandments (Romans 3:19-20). Ask yourself these questions: Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever looked at anyone with lust? Most people have committed these sins.
There is no command prohibiting lying. The command is against the specific case of bearing false witness against your neighbour. Lying outside of court is not mentioned.

There is no command prohibiting looking at anyone with lust. The command is against the specific case of coveting your neighbour's wife. Eying up unmarried women is not prohibited.

Other than keeping Saturday holy, I keep the ten commandments. I do not worship God, but then I do not have any god before him, for example.

But God so loved the world that he didn’t want us to have to be separated from him for eternity (John 3:16; Romans 5:8-9). So, how does God remedy this problem of our sin? Well, God the Son became a man in the person of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). He lived a righteous life on our behalf and he willingly subjected himself to die on the cross for our sins (Philippians 2:6-8). While he was on the cross, he took the full wrath of God the Father on himself for the sins we’ve committed (1 Peter 2:24). ... He died as the substitute payment for the sins we’ve committed against God, satisfying God’s justice for all who would repent and trust in him (1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:18; John 1:11-12; 14:6).
God's justice was satisfied by God taking out his anger on God. is that right?

Jesus then rose from the dead three days later, which was not only the ultimate vindication of his claims, but it also demonstrated that the Father accepted the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
These are both God, right? God raising God demonstrated that God accepted his own sacrifice.

And let us be honest here, it was not much of a sacrifice. When a soldier lays down his life for his country, that is a sacrifice. That is for ever. When Jesus did it is was for less than 48 hours!

And that does not even get into whether the resurrection actually happened...
 

Nouveau

Active member
Substitutionary atonement theory isn't essential to Christianity.
It's an essential part of the OP's account of the Gospel message.

It's merely an explanatory theory of the data.
How so? Seems more like a religious doctrine to me.

How do you understand it and what doesn't make sense?
In this instance, I understand it as described in the OP. It doesn't make sense because it's obviously not just to punish an innocent person for another's actions.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
It's an essential part of the OP's account of the Gospel message.
Maybe of his presentation but there are many atonement theories that are very acceptable if you find some form of substitutionary atonement problematic.
How so? Seems more like a religious doctrine to me.
It's a theory trying to explain the data in the New Testament regarding what Jesus and others said about his death. All theological doctrines begin, like scientific theories, as hypotheses trying to explain information.
In this instance, I understand it as described in the OP. It doesn't make sense because it's obviously not just to punish an innocent person for another's actions.
Oh, you mean penal substitutionary atonement specifically? I don't buy that either and many Christians don't. It seems to be a distinctly Protestant (and even then, mostly Lutheran/Calvinist/Baptist) approach.
 
The gospel is the good news that God became man in Jesus Christ. <snip> All you need to do is trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins (Romans 10:7-18). I urge you to do this and it’s my hope and prayer that you do.
ok, so you know how to cut and paste. Why should I take what is written in the bible (or any religious text) seriously? Do you believe the bible is a true historic account?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
ok, so you know how to cut and paste. Why should I take what is written in the bible (or any religious text) seriously? Do you believe the bible is a true historic account?
I don't think the Bible can be treated as a monolithic whole, and the religious life is more than just reading a book; it's also living within a tradition, community life, moral witness, and inner conviction.
 

Nouveau

Active member
Maybe of his presentation but there are many atonement theories that are very acceptable if you find some form of substitutionary atonement problematic.
What would be a version you consider acceptable?

It's a theory trying to explain the data in the New Testament regarding what Jesus and others said about his death. All theological doctrines begin, like scientific theories, as hypotheses trying to explain information.
I think there's a massive difference between scientific theory and religious doctrine in what is being considered 'data', even if both are explanatory. The OP also does not advance substitutional atonement as one possible explanation, open to revision and falsification. It is presented as religious doctrine.

Oh, you mean penal substitutionary atonement specifically? I don't buy that either and many Christians don't. It seems to be a distinctly Protestant (and even then, mostly Lutheran/Calvinist/Baptist) approach.
Again, I'm just responding to the OP's doctrine. But I'm glad you also reject it as unjust.
 
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