The Heresy of the Seventh day Adventist Church!

CharismaticLady

Active member
You do not understand salvation or sanctification as your ideas about Romans 7 show. You sin every day Lady.
I would really like to see how you interpret Romans 7. I know the beginning and end of the context to rightly divide the Word of truth. Do you?

What does Romans 7:9 mean?
What does Romans 7:14-23 mean?
What does Romans 7:13 mean?
What does Romans 8:2 mean?
What does Romans 8:9 mean?
What does Romans 8:10 mean?
 
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Buzzard

Active member
Most of what Paul wrote is Scripture, but what is not is easy to discern, especially what he says against women. Jesus made us equal. Paul couldn't shake the old ways. Even had Timothy circumcised in fear of the Jews.
Be careful when reading Paul, according to Peter
they wrest Paul as they do the other scripture
especially
"The Scripture of Truth
..........for they received the love of the truth,
that they might be damned
"

Paul saith not what these :devilish: Male Chauvinist Preachers :devilish:claim he said

In the Kingdom
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done......
Who will be the Teachers ????

The DAUGHTERS of ARRON
thats Female

quit listening to these Know - Nuttin Protestant Preachers that peddle their snake oil
 

Iconoclast

Active member
HelloCL,

Question: Do you believe sanctification is a "life-long process of overcoming sin"?
Yes, it certainly is!
From a Baptist Catechism with Commentary;
Sanctification is the work of God’s Word and Spirit, whereby the believer is renewed in the whole man after the image of God, has died to the reigning power of sin, and is enabled to live more and more unto righteousness, and to mortify the manifestations of indwelling sin and remaining corruption.
1 Cor. 1:1–2. 1Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.

1 Cor. 1:30–31. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Eph. 4:22–24. 22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 1 Thess. 4:3–4, 7. 3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour….7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Heb. 12:14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

1 Pet. 1:15–16. 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Pet. 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Jn. 17:17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Cor. 7:1. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Thess. 5:23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.







Yes or no? Be sure to provide a scripture

The truth about sanctification is that when we are born again, THAT is when Jesus takes away sin out of our nature. 1 John 3:5. That is what it means to be born again. It is our mind and spirit that makes up our nature, and is what becomes not only born again, but immortal. So sanctification has already been done.
You are confusing Justification and sanctification....The reigning power of sin is broken, yet we are still able to sin, until glorification, Romans 7;
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you think you are sinless you are totally decieved and need new birth.


The essence of sanctification is that of separation and purification. Although these two principles characterize the whole of the eternal redemptive purpose, they are preeminent in the biblical truth and reality of the believer’s sanctification or holiness of life. Sanctification practically means a life lived reflecting the moral character God as revealed in his inscripturated Word—a life lived in willing obedience to his commands. The process of sanctification is inclusive of the believer’s entire experience, and the goal of sanctification is ultimate conformity to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:17–18; 2 Pet. 3:18)


The life-long process is not called "sanctification," it is called "glorification," becoming more and more like Christ, and why God refers to us as children of God. Romans 8:29-30. 2 Peter 1:2-4 shows us that we who are born again and receive the grace of God, His divine power, partake of the divine nature of Christ, that Jesus had all His life on earth. He was conceived with the same seed of the Father that makes us have such power over sin that we cannot sin. 1 John 3:9

You have it backwards, sanctification starts here and all through our life, glorification happens in heaven.
And 1jn 3:9 is is speaking of a habitual practice of sin. you sin every day .
 

Iconoclast

Active member
I would really like to see how you interpret Romans 7. I know the beginning and end of the context to rightly divide the Word of truth. Do you?

What does Romans 7:9 mean?
What does Romans 7:14-23 mean?
What does Romans 7:13 mean?
What does Romans 8:2 mean?
What does Romans 8:9 mean?
What does Romans 8:10 mean?
See my previous post,
You are confusing Justification and sanctification....The reigning power of sin is broken, yet we are still able to sin, until glorification, Romans 7;
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you think you are sinless you are totally decieved and need new birth.

The essence of sanctification is that of separation and purification. Although these two principles characterize the whole of the eternal redemptive purpose, they are preeminent in the biblical truth and reality of the believer’s sanctification or holiness of life. Sanctification practically means a life lived reflecting the moral character God as revealed in his inscripturated Word—a life lived in willing obedience to his commands. The process of sanctification is inclusive of the believer’s entire experience, and the goal of sanctification is ultimate conformity to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:17–18; 2 Pet. 3:18)

Romans 8:6-9 sums it up
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
What is the very essence of Christian experience? Is it not the reality of salvific truth graciously vouchsafed to the life? Our justification is evidenced by our sanctification. No discernable sanctification, no reality to any claim of justification. Righteousness imputed is never isolated from righteousness imparted. The comprehensive argument of the Apostle Paul in the first eight chapters of Romans, after exploring the condemnation of all men under sin (1:18–3:20) is that everyone who is justified (3:21–5:21) is likewise necessarily sanctified (5:11–8:16). Everyone who is justified and sanctified must infallibly be glorified (Rom. 8:17–8:39)
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
Be careful when reading Paul, according to Peter
they wrest Paul as they do the other scripture
especially
"The Scripture of Truth
..........for they received the love of the truth,
that they might be damned
"

Paul saith not what these :devilish: Male Chauvinist Preachers :devilish:claim he said

In the Kingdom
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done......
Who will be the Teachers ????

The DAUGHTERS of ARRON
thats Female

quit listening to these Know - Nuttin Protestant Preachers that peddle their snake oil
Peter is declaring that Paul does write Scripture, and I said that, but Paul, himself, admits when something is not inspired for all-time, but is for that period of history when women were uneducated, and the Church was being persecuted, so it would be better not to marry at all. And it appears you are not against women teachers. That truth could only come from the Spirit. But there are men who like to cram some of Paul's words down my throat, so I went to God, because I don't want to sin.

So, no male chauvinist preacher told me this Buzzy. I asked God, Himself, and got an immediate answer. "That wasn't from Me." So I am assured that I am okay being a woman teacher. But those same pompus men who deliberately try to hurt women teachers with these words, I really am afraid for. Because without the Spirit of Christ, no man belongs to Christ. Romans 8:9. But Buzzy I sure would like your texts if you know them. I do not find anything on the daughters of Aaron being teachers...
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
See my previous post,
You are confusing Justification and sanctification....The reigning power of sin is broken, yet we are still able to sin, until glorification, Romans 7;
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you think you are sinless you are totally decieved and need new birth.

The essence of sanctification is that of separation and purification. Although these two principles characterize the whole of the eternal redemptive purpose, they are preeminent in the biblical truth and reality of the believer’s sanctification or holiness of life. Sanctification practically means a life lived reflecting the moral character God as revealed in his inscripturated Word—a life lived in willing obedience to his commands. The process of sanctification is inclusive of the believer’s entire experience, and the goal of sanctification is ultimate conformity to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:17–18; 2 Pet. 3:18)

Romans 8:6-9 sums it up
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Hi Icon,

You are describing "the process" correctly, unlike some others, but I believe what you call "sanctification" Jesus calls "glorification." John 17:20-23 below and is referring to our born again nature/mind and spirit. What will eventually be glorified, but hasn't yet, will be our bodies, when we die and are changed at the resurrection of our body and also puts on immortality to match our spirit. Right now, the born again Christian's nature has changed and is already sanctified and become immortal, and is now going through the process of glorification - becoming like Christ. Jesus is the first of many brethren. Romans 8:29-30. I see you have referenced verse 29, but add 30 for the full meaning.

John 17:
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Our nature is being glorified now, not after death like our body has to wait.

The glory we receive is from abiding in Him, and He in us. 1 John 3:24.

As for Romans 7, listen carefully. What you are quoting is being under the Law, the Ten Commandments, see vs. 7. The Ten Commandments is the Old Covenant of the letter. 2 Cor. 3:6-11 calls it the ministry of death. We are of the New Covenant of the Spirit, that 2 Cor. 3:6-11 calls the ministry of the Spirit. Romans 7:13 shows why the struggle of 14-23 - SIN in the carnal nature (before the Spirit and our nature being reborn). Romans 8:2 says the Spirit frees us from the law of sin and death, ministry of death - We are free from Romans 7, the ministry of death - the Ten Commandments. The Spirit is how 1 John 3:5 and 9 are true. But we must first become born again. Personally, I went to church for 30 years before it happened to me. Before then I would have been one of those people who Jesus would have said, "I never knew you, you worker of wickedness." That wasn't just me, but would include anyone who still willfully sins.

There is another classification of sin called unintentional sins. It is our intention that God looks at. Willful sins are sins unto death, and in the Old Testament there were no sacrifices for willful, presumptuous sins - they stoned them to death. Numbers 15:30-36, but there was sacrifice for unintentional sins John calls sins not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17; Numbers 15:22-29. These are called trespasses and the only type of sin in the Lord's prayer (unintentional sins). To have these cleansed and forgiven, all we have to do is forgive one another. Do this everyday. Don't let a day set before reconciliation. Matthew 6:14-15.
 
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It is how we can quickly forgive each other. But maturity is not provoking someone in the first place. As far as Eve being deceived, her unintentional sin was not what cursed mankind. It was Adam's WILLFUL REBELLIOUS sin that showed them they were naked immediately. Paul gave Timothy advice of what he, himself, doesn't permit. It wasn't what "God" doesn't permit. It doesn't make it Scripture. Not everything Paul wrote was inspired as he tells us himself. Another one was his witness against Peter. That was wrong, and should not make us rise up against Peter or Barnabas. Peter was trying to please everyone. First the Gentiles by eating with them, and then by not offending the weak Jews went to great them. But Paul got offended. Peter did the same thing that Paul did, being a Jew to the Jews, and a Gentile to the Gentiles. Most of what Paul wrote is Scripture, but what is not is easy to discern, especially what he says against women. Jesus made us equal. Paul couldn't shake the old ways. Even had Timothy circumcised in fear of the Jews.
Could you please give a specific example, chapter and verse(s), of something Paul wrote that I will find in my Bible but is not Scripture.
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
Could you please give a specific example, chapter and verse(s), of something Paul wrote that I will find in my Bible but is not Scripture.

Here Paul differentiates what is his opinion, and what is a commandment of the Lord:
1 Corinthians 7:
6 This I say by way of concession, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were as I myself am. But every one has his own gift from God – one of this kind, another of that. 8 I say to the unmarried men and widows that it is good for them if they remain just as I do. 9 But if they cannot abstain, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn.

10 To the married command not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not separate herself from the man. 11 But if she separates herself, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband again. And let not the husband put his wife away from him.

Here is how 1 Corinthians 14:29-38 should read regarding prophets in the congregation.

29 Let the prophets speak two in all, or three in all, and let the others judge. 30 If any revelation is made to another who sits by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For you may all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn, and all may have comfort. 32 For the spirits of the prophets are in the control of the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as he is in all other congregations of the saints. 36 Did the word of God come forth from you? Or did it come to you only? 37 If anyone thinks himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him understand the things I write to you. For they are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 And so, brethren, desire to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 And let all things be done decently and in order.

These two verses were added later to the middle of this Scripture. It is not even sure that Paul, himself, wrote these.:

34 Let your wives keep silence in the congregations. For it is not permitted to them to speak, but let them be under obedience, as the law says. 35 If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is unseemly for women to speak in the congregation.

Note that was added according to the LAW that we are not even under.

1 Timothy 2:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, and then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in transgression. 15 Notwithstanding, through the bearing of children they may be preserved, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with discretion.

This was not a commandment of the Lord, but a preference of Paul's. Not only that, but the transgression was recognized when ADAM willfully sinned. That was the transgression. That was when they found themselves "naked."

Genesis 3:
6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked

Galatians 2:
11 And when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face. For he was worthy to be blamed. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise, insomuch that Barnabas was brought into their simulation also. 14 But when I saw that they did not go the right way after the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, If you being a Jew live according to the customs of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 know that a person is not justified by the deeds of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

No where do we see Peter's response to this. Paul even claims to know that it was because of Peter's "fear." I do not believe God would have approved, nor inspired Paul's bragging. Paul did the same thing as he is accusing Peter.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though no man is my master, yet I have made myself a servant to all, so that I might win the more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, to win the Jews. To those who were under the law, I was as though under the law, to win those who were under the law. 21 To those who were without law, I became as though I were without law (when I was not without law as pertaining to God, but under a law as concerning Christ), to win those who were without law. 22 To the weak I became as weak, to win the weak. In all things I fashioned myself to all men, to save at least some. 23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, so that I may have my part in it.

Matthew 18:16
But if he does not hear you, then take along with you one or two others, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
 
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CharismaticLady

Active member
and to mortify the manifestations of indwelling sin and remaining corruption.
This portion is not scriptural. Romans 8:2; Romans 8:9; 2 Peter 1:2-4; 1 John 3:5-9.

You are confusing Justification and sanctification....The reigning power of sin is broken, yet we are still able to sin, until glorification, Romans 7;
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you think you are sinless you are totally decieved and need new birth.

The portion of Romans 7 that you are quoting is on the Old Testament LAW. I don't know if you know this but we are under the New Covenant of the Spirit, and not under the Law of sin and death. 2 Corinthians 3:6-11. Romans 7:13 shows that those Jews in the Old Testament still had their old carnal nature of sin which a true Christian is free from. Justification and Sanctification are back to back. Justification is being forgiven all your PAST sins, and sanctification is being set apart to live the Christian life as born again, Spirit-filled people partaking of the divine nature of Christ. You need to read the context from Romans 7:13 - Romans 8:2. In other words the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made Paul FREE FROM ROMANS 7:14-25.

If you are under the law and still struggle with sin, then you should repent so Jesus can give you the power of the Holy Spirit that takes you out of the old nature called the flesh in Romans 8:9 and into the Spirit with the laws of God written on our new nature and are naturally kept. Jesus said we MUST be born again. Because, indeed, if you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you don't belong to Him. And that means being like Him - staying sinless as He did. Romans 8:29-30.

Being born again of the Spirit is literal and must be experienced. It is not just knowledge, but a powerful religious experience. I remember mine like it was yesterday.
 
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SDAchristian

Active member
You believe all women can be deceived. Remember, EGW was a woman.
You can 'play' the woman card, if you want. You need to be very careful in throwing down that card in apologetics.

My position on "all women can be deceived", deception is a genderless quality of a lie holder.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
You can 'play' the woman card, if you want. You need to be very careful in throwing down that card in apologetics.

My position on "all women can be deceived", deception is a genderless quality of a lie holder.

Yours in Christ, Michael
I've been done with this banter about Eve for days now; ever since I forgave you. It is past and forgotten. Ask me a question about the gospel or something. Here, I'll ask you one. What does the SDA church teach you now about what it is to be born again, and the evidence of such. Good night nurse! Do you know it has been 50 years since I left SDA and I don't think being born again was ever discussed when I was young. Is the truth of it discussed now? I know that it didn't happen to me until 7 years after I left.
 
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SDAchristian

Active member
I've been done with this banter about Eve for days now; ever since I forgave you. It is past and forgotten. Ask me a question about the gospel or something. Here, I'll ask you one. What does the SDA church teach you now about what it is to be born again, and the evidence of such. Good night nurse! Do you know it has been 50 years since I left SDA and I don't think being born again was ever discussed when I was young. Is the truth of it discussed now? I know that it didn't happen to me until 7 years after I left.
AV Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Maybe you need a refresher on Baptism("born of water") ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
AV Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Maybe you need a refresher on Baptism("born of water") ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Why? It appears the SDAs still don't know if you think it is just theological and has to do with being baptized in water. If it didn't produce being baptized in fire, then you just took a bath. Actually, baptism in water must be in response to being baptized with fire which represents the resurrection.

1 Peter 3:
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. Romans 6:1-7

Being born of water is not being born of the Spirit. I was baptized 3 times (the second in the SDA church) before finally dying to self and being filled with the Holy Spirit to overflowing at 30 years old. It was then that the Spirit urged me to be baptized in water for the right reason of a good conscience, and being resurrected with Christ. John the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus baptizes with FIRE. If you still desire to sin, then what good did baptism do you? You must first be crucified with Christ, dying to self, before being buried in baptism. We don't bury people who are still alive. Our spirit and mind is resurrected in a new nature. Experiencing that new nature from the baptism of the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost is being born again.
 
J

J. R. Reynolds

Guest
Romans 14, Col 2:16-23, Acts 1:7

Not only Seventh Day Adventists cannot deal with these texts, but many "Christian denominations," even Catholics/Orthodox/Copts, even Protestants, even modern Reformed. "Cultural Christians" is what they have in common, that is, each has a culture, even taking cues from the secular/pagan society around them, and they judge based upon each culture rather than according to the universal Christian culture defined in the NT.
 
J

J. R. Reynolds

Guest
Here Paul differentiates what is his opinion, and what is a commandment of the Lord:
1 Corinthians 7:
6 This I say by way of concession, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were as I myself am. But every one has his own gift from God – one of this kind, another of that. 8 I say to the unmarried men and widows that it is good for them if they remain just as I do. 9 But if they cannot abstain, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn.

10 To the married command not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not separate herself from the man. 11 But if she separates herself, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband again. And let not the husband put his wife away from him.

Here is how 1 Corinthians 14:29-38 should read regarding prophets in the congregation.

29 Let the prophets speak two in all, or three in all, and let the others judge. 30 If any revelation is made to another who sits by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For you may all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn, and all may have comfort. 32 For the spirits of the prophets are in the control of the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as he is in all other congregations of the saints. 36 Did the word of God come forth from you? Or did it come to you only? 37 If anyone thinks himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him understand the things I write to you. For they are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 And so, brethren, desire to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 And let all things be done decently and in order.

These two verses were added later to the middle of this Scripture. It is not even sure that Paul, himself, wrote these.:

34 Let your wives keep silence in the congregations. For it is not permitted to them to speak, but let them be under obedience, as the law says. 35 If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is unseemly for women to speak in the congregation.

Note that was added according to the LAW that we are not even under.

1 Timothy 2:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, and then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in transgression. 15 Notwithstanding, through the bearing of children they may be preserved, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with discretion.

This was not a commandment of the Lord, but a preference of Paul's. Not only that, but the transgression was recognized when ADAM willfully sinned. That was the transgression. That was when they found themselves "naked."

Genesis 3:
6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked

Galatians 2:
11 And when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face. For he was worthy to be blamed. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise, insomuch that Barnabas was brought into their simulation also. 14 But when I saw that they did not go the right way after the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, If you being a Jew live according to the customs of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 know that a person is not justified by the deeds of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

No where do we see Peter's response to this. Paul even claims to know that it was because of Peter's "fear." I do not believe God would have approved, nor inspired Paul's bragging. Paul did the same thing as he is accusing Peter.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though no man is my master, yet I have made myself a servant to all, so that I might win the more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, to win the Jews. To those who were under the law, I was as though under the law, to win those who were under the law. 21 To those who were without law, I became as though I were without law (when I was not without law as pertaining to God, but under a law as concerning Christ), to win those who were without law. 22 To the weak I became as weak, to win the weak. In all things I fashioned myself to all men, to save at least some. 23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, so that I may have my part in it.

Matthew 18:16
But if he does not hear you, then take along with you one or two others, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
I know this is off topic, but I would be negligent if I let it go:
1 Cor 11 is original authorship and has no variants. Paul's teaching on this is via Godhead and creation, not culture, which it transcends. Don't bother me with modern arguments. Don't bother me with supposed historical/cultural arguments. I've heard them all and they've all been refuted for decades. Liberal theology is the source of all of it, and they don't believe in the resurrection. I know the history. I know the revisionist history attempts, as well. If you want to scrap the Bible every place you don't like it, go ahead, but it's disingenuous. If you want to follow the Bible, then quit attacking it. Paul's statements in the passage have nothing to do with any modern theories. He says this is part of the traditions and customs of the churches that he's handed down, part of imitating him as he imitates Christ, but apparently the Corinthians didn't get all the memos, and they had issues, so he's updating them in 1 Cor. But, I want you to know, he says... (I'm just hitting certain points, read the passage) Man is the head of woman. Man is the image and glory of God. Woman is the glory of man. Woman was made for the Man. Man was not made for the Woman. Woman came from Man. Man comes through Woman. Man is not to cover his head when praying or prophesying, but the woman must cover her head when doing so. If she doesn't, then she must be shaved or shorn. If that's shameful, then she must cover her head. No middle ground, no other option. Man's direct head is Christ, but Woman's is Man, so she must have a sign/symbol of authority on her head, and in due regard to the angels/messengers. Read Gen 1--3 carefully. Still relevant according to Paul. And, if anyone posits only hair as the only covering in the passage, not a separate fabric, then it would have to be a wig to make the passage make sense, as hair cannot be cut and grow back by the next prayer or prophecy, and that would include men having to be shaved or shorn to be considered uncovered whenever they pray or prophesy. This is obviously untenable, and a fabric headcovering or veil of some kind was virtually universal for 1700 years of Christianity worldwide. Many women wore hats up through the 1950s in America. Like I said, then the 60s sexual revolution happened, and churches got infected, and didn't discipline, but compromised instead. Now we don't know what male or female is anymore.
The equality passage that moderners love to misunderstand, ignoring many other passages in the process: Man and Woman are equal/joint heirs of the kingdom, equally saved, equally rewarded according to the deeds done in the flesh, and in heaven "there is neither" male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Greek, and so it is, even in our standing/status regarding being in the faith "in Christ" in this life. But, on this earth, these distinctions nevertheless outwardly remain, and there are commandments for "being subject unto all earthly authorities," for "decency and order", for "giving honor/custom where it is due," commandments specific to slaves, masters, Jews, Greeks, men, women, children, elders, deacons, widows, older widows, younger widows, older men, older women, younger men, younger women, married, single, fathers with virgins, etc., and they are all different. 1 Peter 2 & 3 is another example, as is Ephesians 5 & 6. Also, see the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 for Jew vs Gentile/Greek. Search Paul's epistles for all the other distinct commandments. However, just as in these passages and others, there are also commandments for all Christians equally, regardless of rank/station/prior covenant identity, etc.
 
J

J. R. Reynolds

Guest
No one, by and large, but the modern West, including modern Americans, ignores these passages with an egalitarian or equal rights mindset; and not even Americans/Westerners, by and large, did so prior to the rise of feminism in the late 1800s; but the 1960s put the lid on the coffin, or else summoned a legion of demons with it. This process of Western history is when people started raising many questions of textual criticism and inerrancy and divine authority. Look at the unprecedented results in America: 50+ million abortions, 1 in 4 women, even in churches, in less than 50 years. 50+% divorce rate, even in churches. Increasing LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ, even in churches. Increasing critical race theory, reverse racism, even in churches. Social/ism gospel. I rest my case on that.
And, when Paul says, I, not the Lord... he is simply stating that the Lord Jesus Himself never commanded it, but that Paul is commanding it by his own apostolic authority, as he says, And I also think I have the Spirit, which is to invoke spiritual/apostolic authority for which Paul knows he will be held accountable, nonetheless. When he says, I say this not by commandment, but by concession, that's what he means, and the context is regarding choosing to get married and then having to follow his commandments regarding marriage, vs staying single as he is and not having to worry about the duties of marriage. No apostle challenged Paul, except for Barnabas regarding Mark/John. Paul challenged Peter regarding a Judaizing behavior, and Peter repented, as per Acts and Peter's epistles. Anyone doubting Paul's authority should listen to Peter, who said that Paul's writings are Scripture, the very words of God. And, Jesus told Peter and the others that whoever listens to Him also listens to them.
Also, Genesis 3 curses were never done away with. It is the Law in terms of the writings of Moses. All 5 books of Moses are also referred to as the Law. However, the Law can also mean specifically that part of Moses that contains the Law on Mt Sinai, which is not the entirety of the 5 books also referred to as the Law. Genesis has no Sinai Law in it, but it is still part of what is referred to as the Law of Moses, or Moses, or the Law. No one prior to Moses on Mt Sinai was under Sinai Law, and that's what Moses tells the people, that the covenant is the ten commandments--the later 600 or so were drawn by Moses, still by God's direction, under and from, but separate from, these 10, which God Himself drew on 2 stone tablets (twice, since Moses broke the first set)--and that it is not the covenant that God made with the fathers/patriarchs. The context tells which use of Law, or even law/principle/evidential, that Paul is using. There is no Sinai Law that prohibits women from speaking. Their is no Sinai Law that requires women to be in subjection. Gen 3:16 is the only place, and it is right after creation, 2,600 years prior to Sinai Law.
Deborah was a judge/deliverer, remember? God raised her up. She wasn't a rebel. She went to Barak to go to war. She didn't just take charge herself. And, she tells Barak that he won't get the glory for the victory because he played the coward and didn't go until Deborah insisted, and because he wouldn't go unless Deborah went with him. She says a woman will get the glory instead, but it wasn't Deborah. It was a lady in a tent on the outskirts. She took in the fleeing, exhausted enemy general, gave him milk, and when he fell asleep, she drove a tent spike into his temple. Then Barak shows up and she shows him the dead enemy general. Then Barak and Deborah sing a song saying that God raised her up because the men were cowards and that this tent lady gets glory for securing the victory by killing the enemy general. Hebrews mentions Barak, but not Deborah.
So, you can condemn Paul or whoever in the NT as sexist, but you're only condemning yourself in so doing. Much more likely that Paul and Peter were inspired by the Spirit vs you being so. Much more likely that Paul and Peter were apostles of Christ who learned directly from Him vs you having done so. Much more likely they are in heaven vs you being headed there. So, I'm going with what they wrote vs your modernist sexist conspiracy theories. Peter and Paul are both clear that men are saved through providing for their dependents and loving their wives and instructing and disciplining their children, and/or doing the equivalent towards their church family. Same with women regarding reverencing husbands and doing their domestic and deaconess duties. It's a picture of Christ and His bride, it's a picture of the gospel. Anyone against the apostolic picture of the gospel, anyone against the inner beauty of daughters of Sarah according to God via Peter, is against the gospel of God, and is therefore anathema. Anyone spewing this kind of liberal antibiblical nonsense, and whilst telling a Seventh Day Adventist what's right or wrong with them and theirs, has chopped themselves off at the knees, and then attempted to tell the other and theirs to instead walk like them, in so doing. You can't correct with Scripture whilst undermining Scripture. Whatever you think was merely Paul's erroneous opinions, they carry more weight than the sum total of what you think you have right. You can't quote Paul for your points whilst discrediting him elsewhere. Inconsistent.
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
I know this is off topic, but I would be negligent if I let it go:
1 Cor 11 is original authorship and has no variants. Paul's teaching on this is via Godhead and creation, not culture, which it transcends. Don't bother me with modern arguments. Don't bother me with supposed historical/cultural arguments. I've heard them all and they've all been refuted for decades. Liberal theology is the source of all of it, and they don't believe in the resurrection. I know the history. I know the revisionist history attempts, as well. If you want to scrap the Bible every place you don't like it, go ahead, but it's disingenuous. If you want to follow the Bible, then quit attacking it. Paul's statements in the passage have nothing to do with any modern theories. He says this is part of the traditions and customs of the churches that he's handed down, part of imitating him as he imitates Christ, but apparently the Corinthians didn't get all the memos, and they had issues, so he's updating them in 1 Cor. But, I want you to know, he says... (I'm just hitting certain points, read the passage) Man is the head of woman. Man is the image and glory of God. Woman is the glory of man. Woman was made for the Man. Man was not made for the Woman. Woman came from Man. Man comes through Woman. Man is not to cover his head when praying or prophesying, but the woman must cover her head when doing so. If she doesn't, then she must be shaved or shorn. If that's shameful, then she must cover her head. No middle ground, no other option. Man's direct head is Christ, but Woman's is Man, so she must have a sign/symbol of authority on her head, and in due regard to the angels/messengers. Read Gen 1--3 carefully. Still relevant according to Paul. And, if anyone posits only hair as the only covering in the passage, not a separate fabric, then it would have to be a wig to make the passage make sense, as hair cannot be cut and grow back by the next prayer or prophecy, and that would include men having to be shaved or shorn to be considered uncovered whenever they pray or prophesy. This is obviously untenable, and a fabric headcovering or veil of some kind was virtually universal for 1700 years of Christianity worldwide. Many women wore hats up through the 1950s in America. Like I said, then the 60s sexual revolution happened, and churches got infected, and didn't discipline, but compromised instead. Now we don't know what male or female is anymore.
The equality passage that moderners love to misunderstand, ignoring many other passages in the process: Man and Woman are equal/joint heirs of the kingdom, equally saved, equally rewarded according to the deeds done in the flesh, and in heaven "there is neither" male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Greek, and so it is, even in our standing/status regarding being in the faith "in Christ" in this life. But, on this earth, these distinctions nevertheless outwardly remain, and there are commandments for "being subject unto all earthly authorities," for "decency and order", for "giving honor/custom where it is due," commandments specific to slaves, masters, Jews, Greeks, men, women, children, elders, deacons, widows, older widows, younger widows, older men, older women, younger men, younger women, married, single, fathers with virgins, etc., and they are all different. 1 Peter 2 & 3 is another example, as is Ephesians 5 & 6. Also, see the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 for Jew vs Gentile/Greek. Search Paul's epistles for all the other distinct commandments. However, just as in these passages and others, there are also commandments for all Christians equally, regardless of rank/station/prior covenant identity, etc.
I went to the Source, crying, because I won't sin, no matter what it costs me. He spoke to me, and said "Not everything Paul wrote is from Me." And with those words came the gift of discernment. I was comforted greatly. So my conscience is clear and what I posted is the truth. I would expect nothing less from you that the Spirit would have to confirm this to you.

I don't know if you can hear God's actual voice personally, but ever since I was baptized in the Spirit 43 years ago, I can hear God's voice, and know to only obey His voice, and even to only pray for things He tells me to pray, and I have received 100% of my prayers. 1 John 3:21-22; 1 John 3:5:14-15; John 15:7. Also, in 2000 I was driving in the middle of the Arizona desert and God spoke and said, "I am giving you the office of teacher." So I will remain on this site and write my books for the rest of my life.
 
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J

J. R. Reynolds

Guest
I went to the Source, crying, because I won't sin, no matter what it costs me. He spoke to me, and said "Not everything Paul wrote is from Me." And with those words came the gift of discernment. I was comforted greatly. So my conscience is clear and what I posted is the truth. I would expect nothing less from you that the Spirit would have to confirm this to you.

I don't know if you can hear God's actual voice personally, but ever since I was baptized in the Spirit 43 years ago, I can hear God's voice, and know to only obey His voice, and even to only pray for things He tells me to pray, and I have received 100% of my prayers. 1 John 3:21-22; 1 John 3:5:14-15; John 15:7. Also, in 2000 I was driving in the middle of the Arizona desert and God spoke and said, "I am giving you the office of teacher." So I will remain on this site and write my books for the rest of my life.
There is only One Spirit of Truth, correct? The Spirit of God
There are 7 billion spirits born in deceit, and a third of the angelic spirits are bound to deceive for all of human history, correct?
Do the math on the probability of the spirit you listen to, which is most likely your own, the world, the devil.
The only way to know would be to verify outside of your own spirit. Even Jesus didn't stand on His own authority or testimony alone.
It is written, It is written, It is written, is how he refuted Satan.
That's how it's done. Not mystical spirit juice.
You don't like Paul? What about Moses?
What about John?
Peter?
Jesus?
Anyone?
Emotional testimonies and claims of a monopoly on truth are what every cult uses. You are not Christ Himself, so you don't have a livestream of God's Spirit or Word. To claim such is blasphemy. Even the apostles said they only knew in part and weren't perfect.
 

CharismaticLady

Active member
There is only One Spirit of Truth, correct? The Spirit of God
There are 7 billion spirits born in deceit, and a third of the angelic spirits are bound to deceive for all of human history, correct?
Do the math on the probability of the spirit you listen to, which is most likely your own, the world, the devil.
The only way to know would be to verify outside of your own spirit. Even Jesus didn't stand on His own authority or testimony alone.
It is written, It is written, It is written, is how he refuted Satan.
That's how it's done. Not mystical spirit juice.
You don't like Paul? What about Moses?
What about John?
Peter?
Jesus?
Anyone?
Emotional testimonies and claims of a monopoly on truth are what every cult uses. You are not Christ Himself, so you don't have a livestream of God's Spirit or Word. To claim such is blasphemy. Even the apostles said they only knew in part and weren't perfect.

Exactly. But do those other spirits cause you to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor, and give you the power to not willfully sin EVER? Or do they rob, kill and destroy? John 10:10. When I was baptized in the Spirit - the HOLY Spirit, my whole sinful weak nature turned around in an instant. The old path was dead, and I had power like I had never known over sin. I could resist every temptation. There are many in the Church who have never had this experience, and I am afraid for them. That is why I am here.
 
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