The Hill Cumorah and its ancient artifacts?

Janice Bower said:
Have archeologists excavated it? I guess not. The Mormons bought it in 1928.
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Why would anything be there at all? The only history that took place there was recovering the book of Mormon. The only thing we might find there now would be a cement box. There's not much theological significance in that.
 
Janice Bower said:
Have archeologists excavated it? I guess not. The Mormons bought it in 1928.
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Some mormon scholars claim there is only one Cumorah (like Meldrum) and some mormon scholars claim there are two Cumorahs (like Sorenson). I believe that Meldrum stated that the true Cumorah is in NY state, and Sorenson believes that it is near Veracruz, Mexico. If any battle the scope of the one from the narratives in the mormon book of myths was fought in either place, numerous artifacts attesting to such a battle should have been found in the areas surrounding that site. While there has not been an excavation in Mexico, the SLC sect would have had some opportunity to excavate around their own site in NY state. I haven't heard anything from the SLC sect about any findings to date, have you?
 
I thought I read that someone found a skeleton somewhere in the mound, but it was an old Indian skeleton. Has anyone else read anything about it? Am I misremembering? I could be...
 
Yitoz said:
Some mormon scholars claim there is only one Cumorah (like Meldrum) and some mormon scholars claim there are two Cumorahs (like Sorenson). I believe that Meldrum stated that the true Cumorah is in NY state, and Sorenson believes that it is near Veracruz, Mexico. If any battle the scope of the one from the narratives in the mormon book of myths was fought in either place, numerous artifacts attesting to such a battle should have been found in the areas surrounding that site. While there has not been an excavation in Mexico, the SLC sect would have had some opportunity to excavate around their own site in NY state. I haven't heard anything from the SLC sect about any findings to date, have you?
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So, you're an archeologist?
 
brotherofJared said:
So, you're an archeologist?
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I have read Meldrum's Rediscovering the Book of Mormon Remnant Through DNA, and most of Sorenson's Mormons Codex (until he went circular sans any actual evidence of Joseph's mythical cultures), and they were the views expressed by those mormon scholars. Are they archaeologists? I don't think so, but they did have differing opinions about the location(s) of Cumorah. Perhaps you know of any up to date archaeological finds that validate any of Joseph's claims that he made in his mythical book. If so, then please present them with references to the articles establishing those findings. After all, it's not as if the SLC sect hasn't been attempting to prove Joseph's narratives are accurate since at least 1938, no?

 
Marrk, a former Mormon who comes on here from time to time, wrote this to me a couple of years ago, when I asked him about the location of the hill Cumorah:

Hey Bonnie,

Smith without a doubt taught that the HC was in upstate NY...not even questionable. Mopologists can't explain the issues of this so they created another HC theory and the Limited Geography Theory (LGT). What is interesting is that there is a movement of LDS folks that are pushing a Heartland Theory (HLT), and they are battling each other very nastily. It is actually funny in many ways. You can google this if you are interested and it is fascinating how these folks justify their positions at times.

But Smith taught the HC was in North America, there is even a letter written to Emma from him, I believe through a scribe, where he talks about walking through the a Nephite/Lamanite battle field in North America, and of course you probably are familiar with Zelph, the white Lamanite who was buried in I think it was Minnesota or Missouri.
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I wrote back:

Thank you, Marrk. I did find stuff in the HJS/Joseph Smith papers, from 1834-36, p. 86, where it describes the HC area as the area where the great battle was fought. Of course, the LDS church must do damage control, in order to allow for central America being the place.
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This can be read here, but I will need to take out the link:

.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

I copied the following from these papers:

Joseph Smith’s 1834–1836 history, which includes the handwriting of four of his scribes—Warren Parrish, Warren Cowdery, Frederick G. Williams, and Oliver Cowdery—was written in Kirtland under Smith’s supervision. The bulk of the history was copied from two sources: a series of historical letters written by Oliver Cowdery in 1834–1835 and Smith’s 1835–1836 journal.

Although the history was not written by Joseph Smith, he clearly took ownership of it, referring to the book as “my large journal,” in which “my scribe commenced writing . . . a history of my life.”

"The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history….”(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

“The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York .” (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Lecture 14)​
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The following is from page 86 of this history:

...its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon 120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this vally fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Saviour and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.
But a long time previous to this disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers... [p. 86]
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So, most definitely did Smith and other early leaders of the LDS church believe and teach that the hill Cumorah was in upstate NY, near Palmyra. NOT central America.

 
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Bonnie said:
So, most definitely did Smith and other early leaders of the LDS church believed and taught that the hill Cumorah was in upstate NY, near Palmyra. NOT central America.

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In reality the battle is now between mormon scholars themselves, however that doesn't adequately address the issue of missing artifacts, especially since mormons have owned the area around Jospeh's hill cumorah for a while.
 
If the Book of Mormon plates were buried there how does that fit with the narative? I went to the Hill Cumorah Pageant twice and also to the woods they call the Sacred Grove.
 
Yitoz said:
In reality the battle is now between mormon scholars themselves, however that doesn't adequately address the issue of missing artifacts, especially since mormons have owned the area around Jospeh's hill cumorah for a while.
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What "artifacts" are you referring to?
 
dberrie2020 said:
What "artifacts" are you referring to?
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BYU archaeologist John Clark uncover a civilization in the Soconusco region in the SW area of Chiapas in Mexico. He named the people the Mokaya people (corn people) which was according to the Mixe-Zoquean spoken by the Olmec and Mokaya people groups. By approximately 1900 BC the Mokaya are believed to be the first mesoamerican people to live in permanent villages. By 1700, they were believed to have been the first measoamerican civilization to have made pottery (unfired).

In 2010, a team of archaeologists from BYU discovered a royal tomb (near Chiapa de Corzo?) that they believed was dated from between 700-500 BC. The royal tomb was of a male that was interred with over 3000 artifacts from all over mesoamerica (Mexico to Honduras).

These types of artifacts.
 
Janice Bower said:
If the Book of Mormon plates were buried there how does that fit with the narative? I went to the Hill Cumorah Pageant twice and also to the woods they call the Sacred Grove.
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So? What narrative do you think it should fit? There are factions that claim that the Hill Cumorah is where the history of the Book of Mormon took place, but the church hasn't taken a position on it. People speculate all the time. It may have some clues that would lead one to believe that it's one possible location. However, the plates were carried for many years after the battle at Hill Cumorah. it seems highly unlikely that Moroni would just walk in circles in order to evade detection. Nothing in the Book of Mormon suggests that he buried the plates in the same hill where the battle at Hill Cumorah took place.

So, if you're asking us to make it fit that narrative, that's just another one of your straw men.
 
Yitoz said:
BYU archaeologist John Clark uncover a civilization in the Soconusco region in the SW area of Chiapas in Mexico. He named the people the Mokaya people (corn people) which was according to the Mixe-Zoquean spoken by the Olmec and Mokaya people groups. By approximately 1900 BC the Mokaya are believed to be the first mesoamerican people to live in permanent villages. By 1700, they were believed to have been the first measoamerican civilization to have made pottery (unfired).

In 2010, a team of archaeologists from BYU discovered a royal tomb (near Chiapa de Corzo?) that they believed was dated from between 700-500 BC. The royal tomb was of a male that was interred with over 3000 artifacts from all over mesoamerica (Mexico to Honduras).

These types of artifacts.
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I'm not sure there has been any professional archeological work done in the immediate area of Hill Cumorah.
 
dberrie2020 said:
I'm not sure there has been any professional archeological work done in the immediate area of Hill Cumorah.
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Not that it would matter, there has been no official declaration that anything occurred there except the recovery of the plates, but those aren't there now, so it's not like they are going to be discovered there. I'm not sure how much value a stone box is going to provide archeologists.
 
brotherofJared said:
Not that it would matter, there has been no official declaration that anything occurred there except the recovery of the plates, but those aren't there now, so it's not like they are going to be discovered there. I'm not sure how much value a stone box is going to provide archeologists.
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Other than millions of people supposedly living around there, and at least 250,000 Nephites being killed there.
 
dberrie2020 said:
I'm not sure there has been any professional archeological work done in the immediate area of Hill Cumorah.
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And yet, mormon archaeologists, some from BYU, do exist and are working in mesoamerica and are finding civilizations and their "artifacts" which indicate that prior civilizations lived there, and so far, none that were Lamanite; Nephite; or even Jaredite. So, if the NY Cumorah was the actual site of a great battle that involves horses and chariots, some artifacts would still be present, no?
 
Yitoz said:
And yet, mormon archaeologists, some from BYU, do exist and are working in mesoamerica and are finding civilizations and their "artifacts" which indicate that prior civilizations lived there, and so far, none that were Lamanite; Nephite; or even Jaredite. So, if the NY Cumorah was the actual site of a great battle that involves horses and chariots, some artifacts would still be present, no?
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One would think so. I documented from Mormon writings that this battle took place near the Hill Cumorah in upstate NY in post no. 7.
 
Bonnie said:
I thought I read that someone found a skeleton somewhere in the mound, but it was an old Indian skeleton. Has anyone else read anything about it? Am I misremembering? I could be...
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AS usual, "I thought"... chuckle. Now find the source...
 
brotherofJared said:
So? What narrative do you think it should fit? There are factions that claim that the Hill Cumorah is where the history of the Book of Mormon took place, but the church hasn't taken a position on it. People speculate all the time. It may have some clues that would lead one to believe that it's one possible location. However, the plates were carried for many years after the battle at Hill Cumorah. it seems highly unlikely that Moroni would just walk in circles in order to evade detection. Nothing in the Book of Mormon suggests that he buried the plates in the same hill where the battle at Hill Cumorah took place.

So, if you're asking us to make it fit that narrative, that's just another one of your straw men.
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As an aside, where did "Zion come down" according to Mormon theology?
 
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