The Immaculate Conception

"Robot" is the most common term used by those (including Catholics) who reject the Reformed view that regeneration precedes faith:

God causing Mary to have a different nature: is OK
but God causing the unregenerate to have a different nature is unacceptable

Just looking for a little consistency from the Catholics
Terminology aside, the kind of consistency you need would be from God, not from Catholics. As Jesus said, "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?" If God were perfectly consistent according to the human understanding of justice, people of equal goodness would suffer or be blest equally. But they are not. Does this mean God is unfair? By no means. It just means Man's understanding of God's fairness is limited. "My ways are not your ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts," Jesus also says. So God was inconsistent (in Man's limited understanding) by granting Mary something He did not grant others. We can't explain it. We can only accept it or reject it. Remember, Mary's life was not easy. Well did Simeon prophesy at the presentation in the temple when he said "And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Mary is rightly called "Mother of Sorrows" and in the devotion called "the Seven Sorrows of Mary." Hers life on earth was not to be envied, for she suffered more than most. Her being conceived without sin did not protect her from that.
 
Terminology aside, the kind of consistency you need would be from God, not from Catholics. As Jesus said, "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?" If God were perfectly consistent according to the human understanding of justice, people of equal goodness would suffer or be blest equally. But they are not. Does this mean God is unfair? By no means. It just means Man's understanding of God's fairness is limited. "My ways are not your ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts," Jesus also says. So God was inconsistent (in Man's limited understanding) by granting Mary something He did not grant others. We can't explain it. We can only accept it or reject it. Remember, Mary's life was not easy. Well did Simeon prophesy at the presentation in the temple when he said "And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Mary is rightly called "Mother of Sorrows" and in the devotion called "the Seven Sorrows of Mary." Hers life on earth was not to be envied, for she suffered more than most. Her being conceived without sin did not protect her from that.
Her being conceived without sin is simply made up by the rcc. There is literally nothing even hinting about that in Scripture. You believe it because your pope told you to, nothing else.
 
No, Protestant fundamentalists have caricatured what Catholics believe.
Absolutely false. We repeat what Catholics believe about her, including some of her titles--like "Only hope for sinners." What is Jesus Christ? So much chopped salami? "Co-Mediatrix"? And even worse, "co-Redemptrix" which some Catholics do believe.

We don't need to caricature what Catholics believe about her--Catholicism does that all by itself!
 
Romans 3:23 (RSV) “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

The word for “all” here, in Greek (pas) can indeed have different meanings: as it does in English. It matters not if it means literally “every single one” in some places, if it can mean something less than “absolutely every” elsewhere in Scripture. As soon as this is admitted, then the Catholic exception for Mary cannot be said to be linguistically or exegetically impossible, any more than adelphos (“brother”) meaning “sibling” in one place rules out a meaning of “cousin” or other non-sibling somewhere else.

We find examples of a non-literal intent elsewhere in Romans. In verse 1:29 the KJV has the phrase, “being filled with all unrighteousness,” whereas RSV adopts the more particular, specific meaning, “all manner of wickedness.” As another example in the same book, Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved,” (11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as “filled with all knowledge” (cf. 1 Cor 1:5 in KJV), which clearly cannot be taken literally. Examples could be multiplied indefinitely, and are as accessible as the nearest Strong’s Concordance.

What would be contrary to a sinless / immaculate Mary would be a verse that read something like: “absolutely every human being who ever lived -- no exceptions – has sinned.” This would include Jesus since He is a man, but He is also God (a Divine Person), and Mary. But Romans 3:23 doesn’t entail that logical conundrum.

One could also say that Mary was included in the “all” in the sense that she certainly would have been subject to original sin like all the rest of us but for God’s special preventive act of grace – a “preemptive strike,” so to speak. This is why she can rightly say that God was her Savior too (Lk 1:47). I don’t think that is stretching it, considering that Hebrew idiom was not at all “scientific,” “philosophical” nor excessively particularistic as to literal meanings, as English in our culture seems to be today.

This “exception / original sin / Hebrew idiom” explanation is, I submit, the most plausible. It allows one to take “all” here in its most straightforward, common sense meaning, but with the proviso that Mary was spared from inevitable sin by means of a direct, extraordinary intervention of God, and it is also in line with the thought of Luke 1:47, as interpreted by Catholic theology, in light of its acceptance of the Immaculate Conception.

That said, I go now to linguistic reference works. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Abridged Ed.) states:

Pas can have different meanings according to its different uses . . . in many verses, pas is used in the NT simply to denote a great number, e.g., “all Jerusalem” in Mt 2:3 and “all the sick” in 4:24. (pp. 796-797)

See also Matthew 3:5; 21:10; 27:25; Mark 2:13; 9:15; etc., especially in KJV.

Likewise, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives “of every kind” as a possible meaning in some contexts (p. 491, Strong’s word #3956). And Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words tells us it can mean “every kind or variety.” (vol. 1, p. 46, under “All”).

Nevertheless, I am inclined to go with the “exception” interpretation I described above. My point here is simply to illustrate that pas doesn’t necessarily have to mean “no exceptions,” so that Mary’s sinlessness is not a logical impossibility based on the meaning of pas alone.

We see Jewish idiom and hyperbole in passages of similar meaning. Jesus says: “No one is good but God alone” (Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17). Yet He also said: “The good person brings good things out of a good treasure.” (Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45; 7:17-20; 22:10). Furthermore, in each instance in Matthew and Luke above of the English “good” the Greek word is the same: agatho.

Is this a contradiction? Of course not. Jesus is merely drawing a contrast between our righteousness and God’s, but He doesn’t deny that we can be “good” in a lesser sense. We observe the same dynamic in the Psalms:

Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely,
that seek after God. [3] They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good,
[Hebrew, tob] no not one. (cf. 53:1-3; Paul cites this in Rom 3:10-12)

Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims, “I have trusted in thy steadfast love” (13:5), which certainly is “seeking” after God! And in the very next he refers to “He who walk blamelessly, and does what is right” (15:2). Even two verses later (14:5) he writes that “God is with the generation of the righteous.” So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance.

Such remarks are common to Hebrew poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5-6 refers to the “righteous” (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly: using the words “righteous” or “good” (11:23; 12:2; 13:22; 14:14, 19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Psalm 14:2-3. References to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9; 22:19; Ps 5:12; 32:11; 34:15; 37:16, 32; Mt 9:13; 13:17; 25:37, 46; Rom 5:19; Heb 11:4; Jas 5:16; 1 Pet 3:12; 4:18, etc.).

One might also note 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

The key in all this is to understand biblical language properly in context. It’s not always literal.

(analysis courtesy of David Armstrong, full-time Catholic author.)


If Paul's words in Romans are to be taken literally, then he should have mentioned that exception of Jesus Christ right there in that sentence, for as it stands, it makes no exceptions for Jesus Christ either. Of course we know Jesus Christ was sinless from other sources, so the exception is assumed. Why then are you so sure that Paul was not also aware (but didn't think it necessary to mention it either) that Mary was sinless? Nevertheless, I think David Armstrong's analysis above makes a better case than I could.
The problem for you and Armstrong is that when an exception arises its specifically mentioned in scripture. Enoch, Elijah are clearly said to have been taken up. Jesus is clearly said to be without sin multiple times. As God He isn't the exception, He is the standard. He doesn't fall short of Himself. Nowhere is this exception given for Mary, its assumed by your church. All have sinned AND fall short of the glory of God includes Mary. Born of two fallen, sinful parents can result in nothing other than another fallen person. You can try to defend her sinless nature but you won't be doing it from scripture.
 
The Blessed Virgin Mary's closest relations are literally the Holy Trinity. She is the spouse of the Holy Ghost, the beloved daughter of God the Father and the Mother of God, Jesus Christ, God and man. Nothing defiled could be permitted to enter, even for an atom of time, into the creature that was thus predestined to contract such close relations with the adorable Trinity.

None of this is biblical. "Spouse of the Holy Spirit"?? Well, that makes Mary a bigamist, since she was also the spouse of Joseph the carpenter!

And all of us ladies who are in Christ Jesus our Lord are the beloved daughters of God the Father, by virtue of our faith in His Son--as John says in John 1--that Jesus gave us the right TO BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD. That means outside of faith in Jesus, we are NOT the beloved children of God, but by nature "children of wrath." Since in all the Bible ONLY one person is said to be without sin, and that is Jesus Christ. NOT Mary and NOT anyone else in the Bible.

The Feast first appears in the Catholic liturgy in the East during the 6th century (about 1000 years before the first Protestant sect) and in the West in Spain in the 8th century. Paul, the Deacon, Secretary to the Emperor Charlemagne, and afterwards Monk at Monte-Cassino, composed a celebrated Hymn on the mystery of the Immaculate Conception.

So, this monk composed a hymn on something that never happened and is not even hinted at in the Bible.
The Eternal Father would not do less for the Second Eve than he had done for the First. Yet she was created, as was also the first Adam, in the state of original justice, which she afterwards forfeited by sin. The Son of God would not permit that the Woman, from whom he was to take the nature of Man, should be deprived of that gift which he had given even to her who was the mother of sin.

This is pure human speculation about Mary, again, with no basis in Scripture.
Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genetrix!
It is more correct to say that Mary is the mother of the Son of God. "Mother of God" can be misunderstood to mean that Mary gave birth to the entire Godhead, which she did not. It is far safer and more accurate to say that she was the mother of the Son of God in His humanity.
 
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The problem for you and Armstrong is that when an exception arises its specifically mentioned in scripture. Enoch, Elijah are clearly said to have been taken up. Jesus is clearly said to be without sin multiple times. As God He isn't the exception, He is the standard. He doesn't fall short of Himself. Nowhere is this exception given for Mary, its assumed by your church. All have sinned AND fall short of the glory of God includes Mary. Born of two fallen, sinful parents can result in nothing other than another fallen person. You can try to defend her sinless nature but you won't be doing it from scripture.
There is some evidence from the Bible that our sin nature comes to us through the father, since Paul says that "in Adam, all people die." That sin came to all men through Adam. (paraphrasing). Mary was conceived and born the usual way. She would therefore have inherited a sinful nature. Jesus didn't get this sinful nature, since He has God as His Father, not a mortal man. These things are biblical; the IC is NOT.
 
Terminology aside, the kind of consistency you need would be from God, not from Catholics. As Jesus said, "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?" If God were perfectly consistent according to the human understanding of justice, people of equal goodness would suffer or be blest equally. But they are not. Does this mean God is unfair? By no means. It just means Man's understanding of God's fairness is limited. "My ways are not your ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts," Jesus also says. So God was inconsistent (in Man's limited understanding) by granting Mary something He did not grant others. We can't explain it. We can only accept it or reject it. Remember, Mary's life was not easy. Well did Simeon prophesy at the presentation in the temple when he said "And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Mary is rightly called "Mother of Sorrows" and in the devotion called "the Seven Sorrows of Mary." Hers life on earth was not to be envied, for she suffered more than most. Her being conceived without sin did not protect her from that.
But these Catholic beliefs are NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE--not even a hint. So, why base doctrines that one must believe in to be saved on those made up by man?
 
Ah! Well, the translators made a grave mistake here. I don't think even Jerome's Vulgate has the feminine pronouns in this verse from Genesis.
Gen 3:15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius ;
 
No, Protestant fundamentalists have caricatured what Catholics believe.
No they haven't but RCs caricature what non RCs believe. You give Mary titles she was not meant to have, you put her on a pedestal which the scriptures never say to do, most RCs bow and scrap before her and some more even go over board in their processions etc. RCs post about her more than Jesus. So we clearly understand the false believes of RCs about her, they are not complicated to understand at all.
 
But these Catholic beliefs are NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE--not even a hint. So, why base doctrines that one must believe in to be saved on those made up by man?
But you forget the RCC under its mystic nature has declared that the pope and his cronies are visited by a guiding spirit and come up with their own understanding of scripture and that makes it right. It is their infallibility in these matters that they can just say this is what the scriptures meant. They provide no evidence of said visit by a guiding spirit, no date when it occurred, they cannot tell us the place or the time etc. They will stick to that version no matter how distorted and false it is.
 
'
... I don't think even Jerome's Vulgate has the feminine pronouns in this verse from Genesis.
You need to translate this, PG--it is a requirement for any poster that posts something in another language. :)
You mentioned Jerome's Vulgate; all I did was provide the verse. Someone here should be able to translate and determine feminine/masculine:
Gen 3:15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius ;
 
"Robot" is the most common term used by those (including Catholics) who reject the Reformed view that regeneration precedes faith:

God causing Mary to have a different nature: is OK
but God causing the unregenerate to have a different nature is unacceptable


Just looking for a little consistency from the Catholics
You will not get consistency, or anything that remotely resembles common sense, from any romanist. They just make it up as they go.
 
You will not get consistency, or anything that remotely resembles common sense, from any romanist. They just make it up as they go.
Question:

You people call us "Romanists."

Are "Byzantine Catholics" also "Romanists" even though they do not celebrate the Roman Rite? What about the 19 other rites in the Church that aren't Roman?
 
so the Reformed view is that God changes our nature prior to us accepting faith. (IOW our new nature makes it impossible to reject God's gift of faith) and according to Catholics : the Reformed view has God turning us into robots.

If God changed Mary' nature (which altered her free will choices) without her permission and if God changes our nature (which alters our free will choices) without our permission How is that different?
I was thinking more about your observations/questions.

The main difference between Catholics and the Reformed is in how we see human nature before the fall and after the fall. When Adam and Eve sinned, we do not believe human nature was totally (or as modern reformed like to say radically) corrupted. We believe that human beings remained in essence good. Reformed on the other hand see humanity as becoming incapable of good. They see human nature as totally (radically) corrupted.

For Catholics, when man is justified, God does not change our nature from evil to good, or sinful to not sinful. Our natures did not go from good to evil. What happens is that God infuses his life (Grace) into our beings and our nature is elevated beyond its natural capacity---to be able to bear a relationship with God.

Put another way:

For Protestants, before the fall, man is at zero. After the fall, man goes to -1. For Catholics, before the fall, man was at +1. After the fall man goes to 0.

Put yet another way: before the fall man was not in his natural state but elevated becasue he had life in God. After the fall, man was reduced to his natural state--that is---he lost life in God--which is not part of our nature.

Reformed and Catholics, then, see the fall differently, which is why they disagree on how redemption works.
 
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Romans 3:23 (RSV) “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

The word for “all” here, in Greek (pas) can indeed have different meanings: as it does in English. It matters not if it means literally “every single one” in some places, if it can mean something less than “absolutely every” elsewhere in Scripture. As soon as this is admitted, then the Catholic exception for Mary cannot be said to be linguistically or exegetically impossible, any more than adelphos (“brother”) meaning “sibling” in one place rules out a meaning of “cousin” or other non-sibling somewhere else.

We find examples of a non-literal intent elsewhere in Romans. In verse 1:29 the KJV has the phrase, “being filled with all unrighteousness,” whereas RSV adopts the more particular, specific meaning, “all manner of wickedness.” As another example in the same book, Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved,” (11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as “filled with all knowledge” (cf. 1 Cor 1:5 in KJV), which clearly cannot be taken literally. Examples could be multiplied indefinitely, and are as accessible as the nearest Strong’s Concordance.

What would be contrary to a sinless / immaculate Mary would be a verse that read something like: “absolutely every human being who ever lived -- no exceptions – has sinned.” This would include Jesus since He is a man, but He is also God (a Divine Person), and Mary. But Romans 3:23 doesn’t entail that logical conundrum.

One could also say that Mary was included in the “all” in the sense that she certainly would have been subject to original sin like all the rest of us but for God’s special preventive act of grace – a “preemptive strike,” so to speak. This is why she can rightly say that God was her Savior too (Lk 1:47). I don’t think that is stretching it, considering that Hebrew idiom was not at all “scientific,” “philosophical” nor excessively particularistic as to literal meanings, as English in our culture seems to be today.

This “exception / original sin / Hebrew idiom” explanation is, I submit, the most plausible. It allows one to take “all” here in its most straightforward, common sense meaning, but with the proviso that Mary was spared from inevitable sin by means of a direct, extraordinary intervention of God, and it is also in line with the thought of Luke 1:47, as interpreted by Catholic theology, in light of its acceptance of the Immaculate Conception.

That said, I go now to linguistic reference works. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Abridged Ed.) states:

Pas can have different meanings according to its different uses . . . in many verses, pas is used in the NT simply to denote a great number, e.g., “all Jerusalem” in Mt 2:3 and “all the sick” in 4:24. (pp. 796-797)

See also Matthew 3:5; 21:10; 27:25; Mark 2:13; 9:15; etc., especially in KJV.

Likewise, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives “of every kind” as a possible meaning in some contexts (p. 491, Strong’s word #3956). And Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words tells us it can mean “every kind or variety.” (vol. 1, p. 46, under “All”).

Nevertheless, I am inclined to go with the “exception” interpretation I described above. My point here is simply to illustrate that pas doesn’t necessarily have to mean “no exceptions,” so that Mary’s sinlessness is not a logical impossibility based on the meaning of pas alone.

We see Jewish idiom and hyperbole in passages of similar meaning. Jesus says: “No one is good but God alone” (Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17). Yet He also said: “The good person brings good things out of a good treasure.” (Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45; 7:17-20; 22:10). Furthermore, in each instance in Matthew and Luke above of the English “good” the Greek word is the same: agatho.

Is this a contradiction? Of course not. Jesus is merely drawing a contrast between our righteousness and God’s, but He doesn’t deny that we can be “good” in a lesser sense. We observe the same dynamic in the Psalms:

Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely,
that seek after God. [3] They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good,
[Hebrew, tob] no not one. (cf. 53:1-3; Paul cites this in Rom 3:10-12)

Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims, “I have trusted in thy steadfast love” (13:5), which certainly is “seeking” after God! And in the very next he refers to “He who walk blamelessly, and does what is right” (15:2). Even two verses later (14:5) he writes that “God is with the generation of the righteous.” So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance.

Such remarks are common to Hebrew poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5-6 refers to the “righteous” (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly: using the words “righteous” or “good” (11:23; 12:2; 13:22; 14:14, 19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Psalm 14:2-3. References to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9; 22:19; Ps 5:12; 32:11; 34:15; 37:16, 32; Mt 9:13; 13:17; 25:37, 46; Rom 5:19; Heb 11:4; Jas 5:16; 1 Pet 3:12; 4:18, etc.).

One might also note 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

The key in all this is to understand biblical language properly in context. It’s not always literal.

(analysis courtesy of David Armstrong, full-time Catholic author.)


If Paul's words in Romans are to be taken literally, then he should have mentioned that exception of Jesus Christ right there in that sentence, for as it stands, it makes no exceptions for Jesus Christ either. Of course we know Jesus Christ was sinless from other sources, so the exception is assumed. Why then are you so sure that Paul was not also aware (but didn't think it necessary to mention it either) that Mary was sinless? Nevertheless, I think David Armstrong's analysis above makes a better case than I could.
You are either forgetting, or just ignorant of the fact that ALL humans are descended from Adam. And ALL humans are born sinners. That INCLUDES Mary! So all in that statement means ALL. Jesus is NOT a descended from Adam, but Jesus is God incarnate, and is the second Adam. The perfect and sinless Adam. So all born of the 1st Adam are born dead in sin. But those born of Christ are born ALIVE in Christ.
 
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