The Immaculate Conception

[romishpopishorganist]

Because maybe she's concerned about where you'll spend eternity?

Well, she need concern herself only with where SHE will spend her eternity and let ME worry about where I will spend eternity.

Do you not understand that following "men" who have lied, killed, committed sexual sin with children, raped nuns, and made up un-Biblical nonsense will not end well for you?

Do you not understand that when you make statements like the above---you lose credibility? When people caricaturize my Faith as you have done above-----they don't exactly strike me as credible witnesses to God's Truth, you know?

I don't understand the average catholic who will blindly follow the ridiculous "rules" that the RCC makes up without being concerned that they're totally opposite to what Scriptures say.

More caricatures. And you wonder why I do not take you seriously.... The above would be why.

And it doesn't bother them at all. I have many family members, (my wife's family are mostly catholic) and none of them ever pick up a Bible, know any Scripture, and couldn't find Genesis in the Bible if you asked them where it was.

And what? For 1500 years the average person could not pick up a Bible and read it. They had to rely on the testimony of the Church--since books were expensive--and many people could not read and write anyway.

You sit in judgement of people becasue they do not read their Bibles--but know nothing of their spirituality or actual relationship with God.

I grant that reading the Bible is a good thing. It does not follow that people who do not read the Bible do not know Christ or have a relationship with Him. I mean--I am not impressed with Protestants who can quote Scripture. Being able to quote Scripture says nothing about the character of the person or their relationship with Christ.

And the scary part is, they don't care!

They care; they just don't care what YOU think--anymore than I care what you think.

They go by whatever "Father Know It All" tells them to believe, and that's it. Show up for mass, get your "Jesus cookie" and all is well for another week.

More caricatures. Did it ever occur to you that God will hold you accountable for intentionally caricaturing what Catholics believe.

Oh, and don't forget those $$$ for the family members that are in purgatory, ya know!!

More caricatures.

I always say being catholic is a lazy religion because you never have to read your Bible, study anything, or think for yourself. Just do what the "church" tells you and you're good to go. Oh, and never, never say anything about Mary not being THE primary person to them. They go to her for everything, Jesus is a side note. I had someone tell me, when talking about the abortion issue......"if anybody can do anything about abortion, it's Mary! Pray to her!"..... Nothing about God or Jesus. Just Mary! How sad.
Christians don't follow a "church", a "pope", or ANY man! Christians follow Scripture. I have left churches because what they were teaching was not found in Scripture. I even walked out of a catholic funeral for one of my wife's family because I couldn't listen to another blasphemous minute of that service! The Holy Spirit made me so uncomfortable listening to them pray to Mary to intercede for people long dead! I was just so uncomfortable I had to get up and walk out. I waited for my wife in the car.

You're going to spend eternity somewhere RPO, so......

Perhaps that is why we care what you believe.

Again, nothing but caricatures.

This would be why I do not take you seriously.

 

[Bonnie]

Why do I have to? I am not asking you to believe the doctrines.

Because you wrote this in post no. 1068:

"I do NOT think the above teachings are unbiblical. Given this, I do not understand why I am supposed to have a problem with any of them."

Which leads me to believe that you think they ARE Biblical. So, if Biblical, that means they should be in the Bible....right?
Ergo, the teachings should be found in the Bible, or strongly implied. That is why. All Catholics can do is prove these teachings are "poplical", to coin a word. That is not the same as being Biblical--is it?

I am not asking you to be Catholic Bonnie.

I never said you were--but this is just a diversionary tactic--isn't it?

What I think is that I am not asking you to convert to Catholicism and believe these doctrines. Thus, why do you care what I believe?

I never said you were trying to convert me. But I care what Catholics believe because false doctrines can lead them to take their eyes off Jesus and put them on Mary and membership on your church, leading them to put more trust in them for eternal life, than grace through faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, putting their eternal destiny in jeopardy.

Now, please show us how those doctrines I listed are Biblical. I can wait patiently while you attempt to do so. If you cannot, then please gird your loins and be honest and admit you cannot.

 

[Bonnie]

For Romish--you wrote this: "Well, she need concern herself only with where SHE will spend her eternity and let ME worry about where I will spend eternity."

Isn't that being selfish? I mean, why did Jesus give the Great Commission, if we need worry ONLY about where WE will spend eternity?

That is like someone in a tall building who discovers a fire in the basement, who runs from the building, without doing all he can to warn everyone else in the building that there is a fire, so they can be saved...

Selfish, isn't it?

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks for the elaboration. Here is a newsflash--and it is vital you understand this:

Catholics do not accept the premise that we teach the commandments of men and sacrifice the commandments of God for the sake of the commandments of men. When you quote that Scripture, you beg the question.

Oh, ,it is a given that you don't accept what I wrote. Well, two can play that game and I don't accept that what your church teaches are NOT man-made doctrines--because they are! They are nowhere taught in Scripture or even hinted at!

So, I am "begging" nothing.

I think God highly disapproves or replacing man-made, extra-biblical teachings as doctrine. I think perhaps, one of the hottest areas of Hell is reserved for people who replace the commandments of God with man-made, extra-biblical teachings.

You are right--God DOES disapprove! So, why does your church teach so much that is man-made, without even a hint from Scripture?
Well then a lot of your popes and "doctors" of the church must be in that hot part of hell, because they have done just that, "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men." And thus, worshiping God in vain.

What does it mean? Well, we can determine that based on the context in which the statement appears. The context in which that statement appears is not discussions on the authority of Scripture, vs. Tradition, vs. the Church, but Divine Judgement and the Book of Life.

Already answered this. Yes, it is about adding or subtracting from the book of Revelation, which Jesus vehemently condemns.

No! I never said it was. YOU Bonnie, are the one who insists Catholic teaching goes beyond the Scriptures. I do not agree with you.

Of course you don't agree with me; that is a given. But many of your church's teachings DO go beyond Scripture! I have listed at least 7 of them and asked to be shown where they are taught or strongly implied. So far, I have gotten bupkiss.

Agreed. I do not see Catholic teaching has going beyond what is written. YOU are the one who thinks this.

Gee, I wonder why, when none of the following can be found in Scripture, not even a hint:

1. 4 Marian dogmas and that believing them is necessary for salvation
2. Mariolatry and all it entails, like "co-mediatrix" and "co-redemptrix."
3. Celibate, unmarried clergy
5. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would to God, especially to Mary (see no. 2)
6. Indulgences
7. Purgatory
8. Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ PLUS our works
9. Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation

But IF you think these things ARE Biblical then here is your chance to prove it. Have at it, romish! I can wait.

 

[organgrinder]

For Romish--you wrote this: "Well, she need concern herself only with where SHE will spend her eternity and let ME worry about where I will spend eternity."

Isn't that being selfish? I mean, why did Jesus give the Great Commission, if we need worry ONLY about where WE will spend eternity?

That is like someone in a tall building who discovers a fire in the basement, who runs from the building, without doing all he can to warn everyone else in the building that there is a fire, so they can be saved...

Selfish, isn't it?

That reply is a diversion in itself. He can't answer or won't answer. What he believes isn't biblical and he can't show it is.

 

[balshan]

Your remarks would not be filled with such animosity if you truly "cared". That is a false charity.
Actually, what is lazier than saying "Jesus did it all. I don't have to do anything"?

What you call animosity is just the truth. RCs get upset by the truth about their institution its false teachings and practices. Jesus did do it all and that is not beeing lazy, that is just a fact. We don't take the glory that belongs to Him and Him alone.

 

[balshan]

There you go!

It is the truth.

 

[balshan]

Oh, ,it is a given that you don't accept what I wrote. Well, two can play that game and I don't accept that what your church teaches are NOT man-made doctrines--because they are! They are nowhere taught in Scripture or even hinted at!

So, I am "begging" nothing.

You are right--God DOES disapprove! So, why does your church teach so much that is man-made, without even a hint from Scripture?
Well then a lot of your popes and "doctors" of the church must be in that hot part of hell, because they have done just that, "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men." And thus, worshiping God in vain.


Already answered this. Yes, it is about adding or subtracting from the book of Revelation, which Jesus vehemently condemns.


Of course you don't agree with me; that is a given. But many of your church's teachings DO go beyond Scripture! I have listed at least 7 of them and asked to be shown where they are taught or strongly implied. So far, I have gotten bupkiss.

Gee, I wonder why, when none of the following can be found in Scripture, not even a hint:

1. 4 Marian dogmas and that believing them is necessary for salvation
2. Mariolatry and all it entails, like "co-mediatrix" and "co-redemptrix."
3. Celibate, unmarried clergy
5. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would to God, especially to Mary (see no. 2)
6. Indulgences
7. Purgatory
8. Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ PLUS our works
9. Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation

But IF you think these things ARE Biblical then here is your chance to prove it. Have at it, romish! I can wait.

Spot on once again.

 

[balshan]

Well, she need concern herself only with where SHE will spend her eternity and let ME worry about where I will spend eternity.

Do you not understand that when you make statements like the above---you lose credibility? When people caricaturize my Faith as you have done above-----they don't exactly strike me as credible witnesses to God's Truth, you know?

More caricatures. And you wonder why I do not take you seriously.... The above would be why.

And what? For 1500 years the average person could not pick up a Bible and read it. They had to rely on the testimony of the Church--since books were expensive--and many people could not read and write anyway.

You sit in judgement of people becasue they do not read their Bibles--but know nothing of their spirituality or actual relationship with God.

I grant that reading the Bible is a good thing. It does not follow that people who do not read the Bible do not know Christ or have a relationship with Him. I mean--I am not impressed with Protestants who can quote Scripture. Being able to quote Scripture says nothing about the character of the person or their relationship with Christ.

They care; they just don't care what YOU think--anymore than I care what you think.

More caricatures. Did it ever occur to you that God will hold you accountable for intentionally caricaturing what Catholics believe.

More caricatures.

Again, nothing but caricatures.

This would be why I do not take you seriously.

No it is you who just does nothing about caricatures of what others believe. The truth about your institution is not a caricature. No we all have to warn people if they are on the wrong path.

 

[Bonnie]

Your remarks would not be filled with such animosity if you truly "cared". That is a false charity.

The truth sometimes hurts, pilgrim.

Actually, what is lazier than saying "Jesus did it all. I don't have to do anything"?

"This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

We can do nothing to save ourselves, but must admit we are helpless and plead to Jesus--not Mary, but JESUS--for salvation. That is hard for prideful humanity--admitting we are helpless and can do nothing to save ourselves, but must rely entirely on Jesus Christ to save us.

This is sometimes the hardest work of all--swallowing our pride.

When we are saved, the HS indwells us, enabling us to want to bear fruit pleasing to God. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[ramcam2]

Ha, ha, ha! Yes, he has the authority because what the early church believed is written down for us in the pages of the NT, under inspiration of the HS!

The NT isn't a closed book, whose meaning is vouchsafed to a select few in the RCC magisterium! It is meant for everyone. It doesn't require a Ph.D in hermeneutics to understand.

Who "authoritatively" interpreted the Scriptures for the Bereans, when they searched them to make sure that what Paul taught them was the truth?

Ha, ha, ha!

it was written for his body, the church he established in Jerusalem, 33ad, and what the early church believed as written in the new testament can be seen in the writings of the early christians. unfortunately, without a divine authority, it misinterpreted by other man-made institutions.

it was meant for everyone but its official interpretation is left to his church, the instrument He used to determine the canon of the bible.

the bereans believed the oral teachings of paul before they searched the old testament and the reason they were noble-minded (believed in oral and written Traditions) unlike the thessalonians who did not believed paul's oral teachings and believed in their own interpretation of the old testament as some man-made institutions today.

 

[balshan]

it was written for his body, the church he established in Jerusalem, 33ad, and what the early church believed as written in the new testament can be seen in the writings of the early christians. unfortunately, without a divine authority, it misinterpreted by other man-made institutions.

it was meant for everyone but its official interpretation is left to his church, the instrument He used to determine the canon of the bible.

the bereans believed the oral teachings of paul before they searched the old testament and the reason they were noble-minded (believed in oral and written Traditions) unlike the thessalonians who did not believed paul's oral teachings and believed in their own interpretation of the old testament as some man-made institutions today.

Which is not your false church.

 

[A new day]

our remarks would not be filled with such animosity if you truly "cared".

In other words, you want us to flatter you and tell tell you lies, like your institution does. No, we, non-rc's will NOT lie to you. Doing so, would really be a sign of not caring.

Isaiah 30:10
They tell the seers, “Stop seeing visions!” They tell the prophets, “Don’t tell us what is right. Tell us nice things. Tell us lies.

Scripture is God speaking, but rc's don't like Scripture. Scripture speaks truth. God does NOT lie to us. The rcc has given
authority to its own ideas, turning upside down the words of our God, the living God. Your institution isn't serving Christ our Lord, but serving its own personal interests, with smooth talk and glowing words, it deceives innocent people.

 

[A new day]

I never said you were trying to convert me. But I care what Catholics believe because false doctrines can lead them to take their eyes off Jesus and put them on Mary and membership on your church, leading them to put more trust in them for eternal life, than grace through faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, putting their eternal destiny in jeopardy.

Amen

 

[balshan]

Your remarks would not be filled with such animosity if you truly "cared". That is a false charity.
Actually, what is lazier than saying "Jesus did it all. I don't have to do anything"?

I will just point out that those who claim to love their neighbours as Jesus commanded and that includes enemies will never show such animosity or justify doing so. They also would not bear false witness, you are not mind readers therefore you do not whether people care or not. The truth is not animosity, it is just the truth.

 

[Bonnie]

it was written for his body, the church he established in Jerusalem, 33ad,

That would not be your RCC which did not exist back then, and took hundreds of years to develop.

And the Bible is for everyone who wants to know the truth and how to have eternal life.

and what the early church believed as written in the new testament can be seen in the writings of the early christians. unfortunately, without a divine authority, it misinterpreted by other man-made institutions.

Errors started creeping in, even in the first century, and both Jesus and Peter predicted more errors would creep into the church--and did, late in the first century. But God always keeps a remnant for Himself and that isn't your RCC, with its many man-made, false teachings that are taught as doctrine, but are no more than "precepts of men."

it was meant for everyone but its official interpretation is left to his church, the instrument He used to determine the canon of the bible.

Official, offischmal! This is just a cop-out, t The Bible isn't a closed book whose correct understanding is vouchsafed to only a few in the RCC. It is for everyone and it is not hard to understand.

the bereans believed the oral teachings of paul before they searched the old testament and the reason they were noble-minded (believed in oral and written Traditions) unlike the thessalonians who did not believed paul's oral teachings and believed in their own interpretation of the old testament as some man-made institutions today.

Nowhere does the Acts text claim the Bereans believed in any oral traditions passed down to them by their rabbis or religious teachers. When they heard Paul, they did not discuss oral traditions to determine if what he taught them was the truth. They searched the Scriptures, to see if what Paul had said was the truth.

But you still didn't answer my question: WHO "officially" interpreted the Scriptures for the Bereans, when they searched them to see if Paul spoke the truth? I mean, the text says they "searched the Scriptures DAILY" to check on what Paul had taught them. THEY searched the Scriptures for themselves--didn't they?

 

[Bonnie]

There you go!

Yes, there we go! We trust in Jesus Christ fully for our salvation, great and free, admitting that we are helpless to save ourselves, and must swallow our pride and turn to Him in faith, pleading for mercy and salvation, which is in HIM ALONE.

 

[Bonnie]

it proves that 2000 years later, man-made beliefs crept in.

Oh, that started early on, even in the late first century. Jesus warned us about false saviors and false prophets leading even the elect astray. Peter warned us, also, and so did Paul. YOUR church and some of what it teaches are proof of that!

 

[dingoling.]

Oh, that started early on, even in the late first century. Jesus warned us about false saviors and false prophets leading even the elect astray. Pete warned us, also, and so did Paul. YOUR church and some of what it teaches is proof of that!

False. Just the opposite is true. The CC has been fighting false doctrines since its first council in Jerusalem.

 

[Bonnie]

False. Just the opposite is true. The CC has been fighting false doctrines since its first council in Jerusalem.

The CC didn't exist in the first century and is NOT in Acts 15. That is just your church's boastful lie, that you are swallowing hook, line, sinker, bait, and boat!

But WHO made the final decision in Acts 15? Care to tell us?