The Immortal Soul

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
STVB wants debate on this subject and invited me to post separate posts on various subjects in his Obtaining Definitions thread. So here it is. I think it relevant to a forum devoted specifically to Atheism etc. because the skeptic often judges the Bible on unscriptural apostate Christian teachings.

The immortal soul is a pagan concept. Soul comes from a root word which means to bind. Superstitious pagan peoples would bind the hands and feet upon burial to prevent the dead from harming the living. The word evolved into a similar meaning always associated with large bodies of water (the sea) for the same reason. It was thought that the immortal souls were confined in large bodies of water, preventing them from bothering the living.

When translating the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek to English the word soul would be problematic due to it's pagan roots. However, it was the closest word we had. The Hebrew nephesh and the Greek psykhe are the Biblical terms translated into soul. The Hebrew word comes from a root that literally means "breather." The Greek word has a similar meaning. It means life and all that involves. A living being. That can be somewhat complicated by the usual obstacles, like variation in the the use of the word. Greek philosophers or modern day psychiatrists use the Greek word psykhe corresponds to the Hebrew word nephesh (nefesh, etc.)

The soul, according to the Bible, that is, nephesh or psykhe, is mortal, destructible.

Compare translations Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins, he shall die." (WEB)

Compare translations Matthew 10:28: "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (WEB)

Sources
Soul: Wikipedia
Soul: Watchtower
Etymology: Sea and bind

References: Provided by the Watchtower

Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30): “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from נפש [ne′phesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.”

The New York Times, October 12, 1962: H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College states regarding nefesh: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467): “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”

The New American Bible Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms (pp. 27, 28): “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”

Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) on nephesh: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450: “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy‧khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”

The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152: “The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”

The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564: “The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454: “The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”

Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557: “The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”

The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556: “The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”

Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246: “Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”

Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35: “Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”

Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A: Plato, quoting Socrates: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods."

Also see

Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, revised by H. Jones, 1968, pp. 2026, 2027;
Donnegan’s New Greek and English Lexicon, 1836, p. 1404
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
I don't really care whether or not my soul is immortal. In fact I don't really care all that much as to whether or not I even have one. I just know that you and I and everyone reading this is immortal. We will all live forever. Where and in what state, is up to each of us. And God.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
And actually, to hell with how the Greeks and pagans defined soul. I don't define it. But I can kind of detect it when I see it, or rather experience it. Beethoven had a lot. Barry Manilow, not so much.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
I don't really care whether or not my soul is immortal. In fact I don't really care all that much as to whether or not I even have one. I just know that you and I and everyone reading this is immortal. We will all live forever. Where and in what state, is up to each of us. And God.

But none of that is true according to the Bible. According to the Bible Adam and Eve were created to live forever and warned if they sinned they would begin to die and pass that along to everyone thereafter. Salvation was promised to those willing and capable of demonstrating their willingness to accept it. So, at some point after resurrection we would stop dying but those not demonstrably willing to accept that salvation would stay dead. Not be resurrected, whatever the case may be.

We don't have a soul, we are a soul. Possibly immortal upon resurrection, the removal of sin, destruction of the world (not the earth) and establishment of Jehovah's kingdom in heaven and on earth. God's original purpose for mankind to live forever on earth fulfilled.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
But none of that is true according to the Bible.

Here's Jesus in the Bible:

Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life!” (John 5:24).

I Corr 15:26: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

And prior to that verse, it's all about the resurrection of saints with no verses in between, so if death is destroyed, saints do not die.




According to the Bible Adam and Eve were created to live forever and warned if they sinned they would begin to die and pass that along to everyone thereafter. Salvation was promised to those willing and capable of demonstrating their willingness to accept it. So, at some point after resurrection we would stop dying but those not demonstrably willing to accept that salvation would stay dead. Not be resurrected, whatever the case may be.

We don't have a soul, we are a soul. Possibly immortal upon resurrection, the removal of sin, destruction of the world (not the earth) and establishment of Jehovah's kingdom in heaven and on earth. God's original purpose for mankind to live forever on earth fulfilled.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
STVB wants debate on this subject and invited me to post separate posts on various subjects in his Obtaining Definitions thread. So here it is. I think it relevant to a forum devoted specifically to Atheism etc. because the skeptic often judges the Bible on unscriptural apostate Christian teachings.
Actually, I was quite clear--- it's not a debate I wanted.
I simply wanted an explanation.
My comments were quite clear---
Please explain, please elaborate, please explain......

So.... debate was not part of my point at all.

The immortal soul is a pagan concept. Soul comes from a root word which means to bind. Superstitious pagan peoples would bind the hands and feet upon burial to prevent the dead from harming the living. The word evolved into a similar meaning always associated with large bodies of water (the sea) for the same reason. It was thought that the immortal souls were confined in large bodies of water, preventing them from bothering the living.
Curious, because in the hebrew bible, we read that God created man in his own likeness and image--- a living soul.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

[Gen 2:7 HNV] 7 The LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the word, in Hebrew, for living is Hai


And the Hebrew word for soul, is nephesh.





When translating the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek to English the word soul would be problematic due to it's pagan roots.
So, hebrew and greek are pagan in origin, or english is?

However, it was the closest word we had. The Hebrew nephesh and the Greek psykhe are the Biblical terms translated into soul. The Hebrew word comes from a root that literally means "breather."

Well, not quite. It means--- soul.

Then
H3335
יָצַר
yāṣar

YHVH
H3068
יְהֹוָה
Yᵊhōvâ

God
H430
אֱלֹהִים
'ĕlōhîm

formed
H3335
יָצַר
yāṣar

man
H120
אָדָם
'āḏām

of dust
H6083
עָפָר
ʿāp̄ār

from
H4480
מִן
min

the ground
H127
אֲדָמָה
'ăḏāmâ

and breathed
H5301
נָפַח
nāp̄aḥ

into his nostrils
H639
אַף
'ap̄

the breath
H5397
נְשָׁמָה
nᵊšāmâ

of life
H2416
חַי
ḥay

and
H1961
הָיָה
hāyâ

man
H120
אָדָם
'āḏām

became
H1961
הָיָה
hāyâ

a
H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nep̄eš

living
H2416
חַי
cḥai

being
H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nep̄eš


The Greek word has a similar meaning. It means life and all that involves. A living being.
It's curious, because greek is pagan in origin, yet it's used to give us the new testament. So, I'm curious if the problem you're having here is your apparent problem with humanity.
That can be somewhat complicated by the usual obstacles, like variation in the the use of the word. Greek philosophers or modern day psychiatrists use the Greek word psykhe corresponds to the Hebrew word nephesh (nefesh, etc.)

The soul, according to the Bible, that is, nephesh or psykhe, is mortal, destructible.
Yet,
Compare translations Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins, he shall die." (WEB)
Death does not explicitly denote destruction, or cessation of existence. It does mean--- cessation of life. It does mean-- separation from the source of life.

Compare translations Matthew 10:28: "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (WEB)

Sources
Soul: Wikipedia
Soul: Watchtower
Etymology: Sea and bind

References: Provided by the Watchtower
Bingo. A source all of which are pagan in origin.
This pretty much shows the problem.... you're complaining about pagan sources and use pagan sources which simply confirm your previously held beliefs.

Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30): “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from נפש [ne′phesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.
Easy for the incautious reader to misinterprety..... Seems like you should not be incautious.
The New York Times, October 12, 1962: H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College states regarding nefesh: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”
new york times..... another pagan source. In fact, a self-described liberal, left-wing, source....

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467): “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”
catholic..... yet another source which is pagan..... has pagan roots,..... and as I recall, an apostate institution.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The New American Bible Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms (pp. 27, 28): “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”
So, wouldn't this be one of those english, incautious sources?

Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) on nephesh: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”
Wow.... A pagan language source..... German.
New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450: “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy‧khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
Yet another, apostate source.
The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152: “The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”
wow..... for someone opposed to incautiousness, and the english language, you sure are picking up a lot of pagan, incautious, apostate sources.....
The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564: “The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”
Finally, a non-pagan source.... although, irc, you'd previously said they were apostate.
New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454: “The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”
Another apostate source.
Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557: “The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”
And another pagan source..........
The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556: “The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”
Definitively pagan!
Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246: “Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”
Greek..... yet another pagan source....
Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35: “Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”
A once glorious church institution degraded by their own bad beliefs, now a split institution, who rejects biblical truth, because--- it's not culturally relevant.
Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A: Plato, quoting Socrates: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods."
Another greek--- pagan--- source.
Also see

Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, revised by H. Jones, 1968, pp. 2026, 2027;
Donnegan’s New Greek and English Lexicon, 1836, p. 1404
So..... these guys are English speakers, right?
Aren't they among the incautious, easily confused misinterpreters?

Seems like the problem here is that you have chosen sources you view as pagan, apostate, incautious, easier to misinterpret......

No wonder you have bad ideas about the immortality of the soul.

With so much confusion, I'd be confused too.

I find it curious that all your sources--- aside from pagan, incautious, and apostate, they're all using English words to make their descriptions.

Talking about a hyperbolic faux pas!

Well, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with so difficult a biblical idea, but don't you think the last thing you should be doing is using all the bad sources to support your beliefs about it?

I was taught years ago that the manner in which bank tellers learn to differentiate between real money and counterfeit money was to place a few counterfeits indiscriminately in a stack of real bills. They finger through the stack, and the difference was so real, that they immediately identified the counterfeits.

So, the wisest manner to deal with this is not by using counterfeit beliefs--- It's by focusing on the biblical truth. Not mingling, but focus on the truth.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
STVB wants debate on this subject and invited me to post separate posts on various subjects in his Obtaining Definitions thread. So here it is. I think it relevant to a forum devoted specifically to Atheism etc. because the skeptic often judges the Bible on unscriptural apostate Christian teachings.

The immortal soul is a pagan concept. Soul comes from a root word which means to bind. Superstitious pagan peoples would bind the hands and feet upon burial to prevent the dead from harming the living. The word evolved into a similar meaning always associated with large bodies of water (the sea) for the same reason. It was thought that the immortal souls were confined in large bodies of water, preventing them from bothering the living.

When translating the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek to English the word soul would be problematic due to it's pagan roots. However, it was the closest word we had. The Hebrew nephesh and the Greek psykhe are the Biblical terms translated into soul. The Hebrew word comes from a root that literally means "breather." The Greek word has a similar meaning. It means life and all that involves. A living being. That can be somewhat complicated by the usual obstacles, like variation in the the use of the word. Greek philosophers or modern day psychiatrists use the Greek word psykhe corresponds to the Hebrew word nephesh (nefesh, etc.)

The soul, according to the Bible, that is, nephesh or psykhe, is mortal, destructible.

Compare translations Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins, he shall die." (WEB)

Compare translations Matthew 10:28: "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (WEB)

Sources
Soul: Wikipedia
Soul: Watchtower
Etymology: Sea and bind

References: Provided by the Watchtower

Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30): “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from נפש [ne′phesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.”

The New York Times, October 12, 1962: H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College states regarding nefesh: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467): “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”

The New American Bible Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms (pp. 27, 28): “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”

Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) on nephesh: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450: “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy‧khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”

The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152: “The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”

The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564: “The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454: “The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”

Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557: “The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”

The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556: “The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”

Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246: “Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”

Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35: “Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”

Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A: Plato, quoting Socrates: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods."

Also see

Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, revised by H. Jones, 1968, pp. 2026, 2027;
Donnegan’s New Greek and English Lexicon, 1836, p. 1404
I forgot to mention....

Thank you very much for taking the time to detail your ideas of the immortal soul.

Something I am curious about with regards to this is....

Why would it matter if you're right about this?

If sinners die, and don't exist forever, then what's the problem?
They simply cease to exist.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
So, wouldn't this be one of those english, incautious sources?
Wow.... A pagan language source..... German.
Yet another, apostate source.
wow..... for someone opposed to incautiousness, and the english language, you sure are picking up a lot of pagan, incautious, apostate sources.....
Finally, a non-pagan source.... although, irc, you'd previously said they were apostate.
Another apostate source.
And another pagan source..........
Definitively pagan!
Greek..... yet another pagan source....
A once glorious church institution degraded by their own bad beliefs, now a split institution, who rejects biblical truth, because--- it's not culturally relevant.
Another greek--- pagan--- source.

Pagan means outside of. It doesn't matter if these sources are pagan.

So..... these guys are English speakers, right?
Aren't they among the incautious, easily confused misinterpreters?

Seems like the problem here is that you have chosen sources you view as pagan, apostate, incautious, easier to misinterpret......

No wonder you have bad ideas about the immortality of the soul.

With so much confusion, I'd be confused too.

I find it curious that all your sources--- aside from pagan, incautious, and apostate, they're all using English words to make their descriptions.

Talking about a hyperbolic faux pas!

Well, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with so difficult a biblical idea, but don't you think the last thing you should be doing is using all the bad sources to support your beliefs about it?

I was taught years ago that the manner in which bank tellers learn to differentiate between real money and counterfeit money was to place a few counterfeits indiscriminately in a stack of real bills. They finger through the stack, and the difference was so real, that they immediately identified the counterfeits.

So, the wisest manner to deal with this is not by using counterfeit beliefs--- It's by focusing on the biblical truth. Not mingling, but focus on the truth.

No serious argument, then?
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
I forgot to mention....

Thank you very much for taking the time to detail your ideas of the immortal soul.

Something I am curious about with regards to this is....

Why would it matter if you're right about this?

If sinners die, and don't exist forever, then what's the problem?
They simply cease to exist.

Oddly enough, I don't think that you are as obtuse as you come off as. I think you are simply trying, a little bit, to defend a defenseless ideology. By that I mean, your ideology is strictly unscriptural, based on Greek philosophy, and you can't argue that. Simple.

It isn't about whether or not you and I are right or wrong, the question is what is the truth.

What's the problem? There is no problem. Except for that when you tell "sinners" which, by the way, we all are, that they will suffer in hell or the lake of fire or whatever, literally - you're not telling the truth according to the Bible.
 

Furion

Well-known member
What's the problem? There is no problem. Except for that when you tell "sinners" which, by the way, we all are, that they will suffer in hell or the lake of fire or whatever, literally - you're not telling the truth according to the Bible.
This lake of fire?

Rev 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Pagan means outside of. It doesn't matter if these sources are pagan.
Actually, it matters entirely!
That you don't recognize that shows me how much you have misunderstood about the bible, about YHVH and Jesus.
You reject key biblical themes and then use nonbiblical sources to justify why you reject biblical themes, and doctrines.

No serious argument, then?
What? You thought you actually had something that needed to be argued against?

SR, please read 1 Kings 18-19, and consider Elijah's handling of the prophets of Ba'al and Asherah.

His entire rhetoric, and practice there was a slap in the face to their stupidity.

They had false beliefs, based on false ideas, and preconceptions about who and what God is and YHVH showed up and dealt with it.

You'd learn a lot about YHVH and Jesus if you simply focused on the bible.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Oddly enough, I don't think that you are as obtuse as you come off as. I think you are simply trying, a little bit, to defend a defenseless ideology. By that I mean, your ideology is strictly unscriptural, based on Greek philosophy, and you can't argue that. Simple.
And apparently you don't actually understand the truth, and how quickly your beliefs fall apart when presented with the bible.



It isn't about whether or not you and I are right or wrong, the question is what is the truth.
Bingo!
As is written in Psalm 119, John 14:6, and 17:17

YHVH's Word is Truth. Jesus IS YHVH's Word, Logos. Jesus IS Truth.



What's the problem? There is no problem. Except for that when you tell "sinners" which, by the way, we all are, that they will suffer in hell or the lake of fire or whatever, literally - you're not telling the truth according to the Bible.
According to whose bible?
Because Jesus himself talked about this issue.
Oh, wait.... I forgot.....
You believe that the bible you're talking about was corrupted, and YHVH.... the Infinite and Eternal God who spoke the entire cosmos into existence, and formed man out of the dust, and then fashioned the woman from the man, and came to earth, and lived as a man, is too inept, incapable and bumbling a fool to handle the ineptitudes of his creation in ensuring that His Word is incorruptible and true, throughout the entirety of human history, from Adam and Eve to the very last human being to be born?

If this is the case, then you have a very small, inept, fool of a god.
Definitely NOT YHVH, as described in the bible.

Your beliefs remind me of the prophets of Ba'al whose god was on the toilet, taking a cra8, while they were gashing, and slicing themselves, spilling their own blood trying to get his attention.

Well, I again really appreciate you taking the time to take the time to explain your beliefs and the sources from which you have built those beliefs. This helps me a lot.
 
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Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Actually, I was quite clear--- it's not a debate I wanted.
I simply wanted an explanation.
My comments were quite clear---
Please explain, please elaborate, please explain......

So.... debate was not part of my point at all.


Curious, because in the hebrew bible, we read that God created man in his own likeness and image--- a living soul.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

[Gen 2:7 HNV] 7 The LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the word, in Hebrew, for living is Hai


And the Hebrew word for soul, is nephesh.






So, hebrew and greek are pagan in origin, or english is?



Well, not quite. It means--- soul.

Then
H3335
יָצַר
yāṣar

YHVH
H3068
יְהֹוָה
Yᵊhōvâ

God
H430
אֱלֹהִים
'ĕlōhîm

formed
H3335
יָצַר
yāṣar

man
H120
אָדָם
'āḏām

of dust
H6083
עָפָר
ʿāp̄ār

from
H4480
מִן
min

the ground
H127
אֲדָמָה
'ăḏāmâ

and breathed
H5301
נָפַח
nāp̄aḥ

into his nostrils
H639
אַף
'ap̄

the breath
H5397
נְשָׁמָה
nᵊšāmâ

of life
H2416
חַי
ḥay

and
H1961
הָיָה
hāyâ

man
H120
אָדָם
'āḏām

became
H1961
הָיָה
hāyâ

a
H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nep̄eš

living
H2416
חַי
cḥai

being
H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nep̄eš



It's curious, because greek is pagan in origin, yet it's used to give us the new testament. So, I'm curious if the problem you're having here is your apparent problem with humanity.

Yet,

Death does not explicitly denote destruction, or cessation of existence. It does mean--- cessation of life. It does mean-- separation from the source of life.




Bingo. A source all of which are pagan in origin.
This pretty much shows the problem.... you're complaining about pagan sources and use pagan sources which simply confirm your previously held beliefs.


Easy for the incautious reader to misinterprety..... Seems like you should not be incautious.

new york times..... another pagan source. In fact, a self-described liberal, left-wing, source....


catholic..... yet another source which is pagan..... has pagan roots,..... and as I recall, an apostate institution.

STVB, what does Ezekiel 18:4 and Matthew 10:28 say?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Correction: The soul that sins is destructible.
You two are saying the same thing. LOL

@Semmelweis Reflux: The soul, according to the Bible ... is mortal, destructible

@shnarkle: The soul that sins is destructible.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

@SteveB, @Furion

When you read the Bible as a whole, both Old and New this subject is quite clear if you have the Spirit to teach you.

Man was created in God's image and was immortal: spirit, soul and body.

When Man sinned he died, but not immediately, it just means he became mortal and lost his immortality, spirit, soul and body. Satan also sinned for the first time in the Garden, Ezekiel 28 known as the King of Tyre. He was created immortal, but when he sinned he did not lose his immortality. All the angels stayed immortal, and that is why hell was only created for the devil and his angels. Not for man. However, there WILL be some Christians in hell forever. We'll talk about that at the end.

Those who kept God's commands in the Old Covenant died, but were raised when Jesus was raised. Their sins were cleansed by the blood of the Messiah they were looking forward to though they never knew Him. They were even seen walking around Jerusalem after Jesus rose from the dead. When Jesus returned to heaven forty days later, I believe those OT saints went too. They didn't just walk around the earth forever, or die and buried a second time. It is just a guess, but an educated guess.

Now the New Covenant saints are born again, and this is why Jesus said we MUST be born again. This makes our nature cleansed back to the pure human nature that Adam was first created with and was immortal. But we have something more that Adam didn't have, and that is the infilling of God in us empowering us with grace: the divine power of God. We are slaves or righteousness. (And it is not "imputed:" righteousness as the Old Testament saints before and after the law: Abraham and King David had), We have true righteousness and have no desire to commit sins of willful lawlessness, and the Spirit plants seeds of the fruit of the Spirit that we must mature into.

Of the spirit, soul and body, only the spirit and soul was crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6-18 and became the pure human nature that may partake of the divine nature of God, because His seed remains in us, 1 John 3:4, 5, and 9; and 2 Peter 1:2-11. However, we still have the same free will Adam had. This is why 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 5:18 shows our responsibility: purify ourselves, keep ourselves. Romans 8:9 shows our nature is in the Spirit, but not to be confused with the body. Verse 10 says it must still die in order to be raised up again immortal.

So what about the lake of fire? The demonic Antichrist/Beast and False Prophet along with Satan and His angels will be thrown in the lake of fire to be tortured forever. Unsaved man is totally mortal and will be destroyed in the lake of fire instantly. BUT 2 Peter 2:18-22 gives a hint of the apostate Christians.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who [i]have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

They had become immortal.
 
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