The Immortal Soul

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
You two are saying the same thing. LOL

@Semmelweis Reflux: The soul, according to the Bible ... is mortal, destructible

@shnarkle: The soul that sins is destructible.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

@SteveB, @Furion

There are several problems. The pagan meaning of the word soul not being compatible with the Biblical words translated as soul. That was pointed out in the OP. It's being pagan isn't necessarily a problem unless there is some discrepancy. Like with the modern word hell and the immortal soul. The Greek philosophers taught an immortal soul. The Bible doesn't. Some remove the word soul entirely. They (those posting responses) seem to be conflating the immortal soul with the soul, which might be construed as disingenuous but I think is just poor debate skills in expressing their pagan induced theology.

The word God is a pagan word later adopted by Christianity. That's a natural translation. The baptism was practiced first among pagans. No problem, as that is what Jesus, John and the disciples taught. Pagan is just a word that means outside of. It was used by Roman soldiers and Christians because the pagans were the landowners leaving outside of town, difficult to recruit. Much like heathen, from the heath. Landowners. To the Romans the Christians were pagan and to the Christians the Romans were pagan in the sense that they were each outside of their respective groups.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It is only the soul that sins that is mortal. They are practically synonymous terms.
The question is is the soul that sins immortal?
That's not the question. That's a Given.
Even if we do set aside that all souls sin the question remains does it live on forever? No.
Back in the day, the newscaster would say, "Forty souls were lost with the ship." In Genesis, it is earth and spirit combined which results in a soul. When the spirit leaves the body, the soul no longer exists.

Adam's name is a play on the word "adamah" which is the ground or earth which is formed, but that is not "the image of God". Adam is the name given to describe "what" he is. It is what Adam identifies with, and God humors Adam in this first recorded case of identity politics by pointing out that by identifying with the dirt his body is formed from destines this new identity to die with it. "Who" Adam is can only be found in the image of God who is Christ.

God is spirit (not to be confused with "a spirit"), and those who identify with spirit cannot die. Those who "walk in the spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". They don't sin. They are the new creation. Do you see the difference?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
There are several problems. The pagan meaning of the word soul not being compatible with the Biblical words translated as soul. That was pointed out in the OP. It's being pagan isn't necessarily a problem unless there is some discrepancy. Like with the modern word hell and the immortal soul. The Greek philosophers taught an immortal soul. The Bible doesn't. Some remove the word soul entirely. They (those posting responses) seem to be conflating the immortal soul with the soul, which might be construed as disingenuous but I think is just poor debate skills in expressing their pagan induced theology.

The word God is a pagan word later adopted by Christianity. That's a natural translation. The baptism was practiced first among pagans. No problem, as that is what Jesus, John and the disciples taught. Pagan is just a word that means outside of. It was used by Roman soldiers and Christians because the pagans were the landowners leaving outside of town, difficult to recruit. Much like heathen, from the heath. Landowners. To the Romans the Christians were pagan and to the Christians the Romans were pagan in the sense that they were each outside of their respective groups.

All you have to do to see what the non Greek, Hebrew apostles meant was to look at all the ways they express the eternal law of God. Love God with all your what? We see strength, mind, spirit, soul, body and heart that means conscience. When we compare Galatians 5:17 with Romans 7:25 we see that the spirit and mind are comparable. We also see that soul and heart/conscience are comparable. The word flesh according to Paul means nature and old man. Romans 6:6-16. Romans 8:8-10., not "body." You can study the pagan minds all you want, but understanding God's word is much more simple, except the only advanced theology you need to understand is not Greek, but the Semitic writing styles of the Apostles. In fact, our western mindset is so far removed from the apostles eastern mindset that false doctrine are created that say things like 1 John 1:8 is a born again Christian just because John used the word "we." Pathetic! The key word in 1 John 1 and 2 is not "we", but "say." But the Semitic writing style is a parallel synonym. In this case a contrast between light and darkness, the same as in chapter 3. The Light verses are 5, 7 and 9. The darkness verses are 6, 8 and 10. The contrasts go back and forth. The Greek style would have been putting all the light in one paragraph and all the darkness in a separate paragraph. But John wasn't Greek.

Read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and watch out for getting too involved in the wisdom of man. The Spirit will let you see clearly the mindset of His Apostles, but especially the Spirit.
 
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Furion

Well-known member
You two are saying the same thing. LOL

@Furion

They had become immortal.

There is no following what this poster is claiming, it's all over the place.

However, the souls that died, and then find themselves standing before God, may want to adjust their "theology" because the soul that sinneth and died makes a miraculous come back to rise again!
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
However, the souls that died, and then find themselves standing before God, may want to adjust their "theology" because the soul that sinneth and died makes a miraculous come back to rise again!

You did it again? How can someone who died not both "miraculously rise again" and "stand before God"???? Do you think if they rise up from the dead they are not going to stand before God? You really just say one thing, but can't recognize when someone says the same thing another way.
 

Furion

Well-known member
You did it again?
Did what again?
How can someone who died not both "miraculously rise again" and "stand before God"????
You tell me, the OP claims the soul is mortal, inexistent upon mortal death, so you'll need to ask them how these same souls stand before God.

Perhaps you can explain to the OP that no man is dead to the God who can raise up again, whether to life or condemnation. He apparently thinks they do it souless perhaps.
Do you think if they rise up from the dead they are not going to stand before God?
That would be silly to think that.
You really just say one thing, but can't recognize when someone says the same thing another way.
Your peacemaking attempts are virtuous.

If the OP wants to say the same thing as me, as you claim, then let them say it. So far the OP doesn't seem to say anything about your claim.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
It is only the soul that sins that is mortal. They are practically synonymous terms.

What terms? That doesn't even make sense. The idea of a soul being a separate part of persons or animals isn't scriptural. We all sin. We are all souls. We all die.

That's not the question. That's a Given.

Oh, brother. No it isn't.

Back in the day, the newscaster would say, "Forty souls were lost with the ship." In Genesis, it is earth and spirit combined which results in a soul. When the spirit leaves the body, the soul no longer exists.

When they say the souls were lost they mean their life ended. Soul and life are, depending upon context, somewhat interchangeable. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Soul for soul, life for life, blood for blood are pretty much the same thing. The soul is in the blood which is why they were prohibited to eat or drink the blood of an animal. That's what the soul is in the Bible. Your version of the soul seems to be Aristotle's butterfly. The Greek words are the same, the meaning isn't because Jesus, Paul, etc. had different views of the soul. As do the modern Christian and I.

Adam's name is a play on the word "adamah" which is the ground or earth which is formed, but that is not "the image of God". Adam is the name given to describe "what" he is. It is what Adam identifies with, and God humors Adam in this first recorded case of identity politics by pointing out that by identifying with the dirt his body is formed from destines this new identity to die with it. "Who" Adam is can only be found in the image of God who is Christ.

God is spirit (not to be confused with "a spirit"), and those who identify with spirit cannot die. Those who "walk in the spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". They don't sin. They are the new creation. Do you see the difference?

Do you think that the soul, according to the Bible, is destructible? Not that it has to be but can it be? Do the souls of the wicked suffer literal punishment in literal fiery torment, according to the Bible, and if so how is the immaterial soul and demonic spirit creatures harmed by literal fire?
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
All you have to do to see what the non Greek, Hebrew apostles meant was to look at all the ways they express the eternal law of God. Love God with all your what? We see strength, mind, spirit, soul, body and heart that means conscience. When we compare Galatians 5:17 with Romans 7:25 we see that the spirit and mind are comparable. We also see that soul and heart/conscience are comparable. The word flesh according to Paul means nature and old man. Romans 6:6-16. Romans 8:8-10., not "body." You can study the pagan minds all you want, but understanding God's word is much more simple, except the only advanced theology you need to understand is not Greek, but the Semitic writing styles of the Apostles. In fact, our western mindset is so far removed from the apostles eastern mindset that false doctrine are created that say things like 1 John 1:8 is a born again Christian just because John used the word "we." Pathetic! The key word in 1 John 1 and 2 is not "we", but "say." But the Semitic writing style is a parallel synonym. In this case a contrast between light and darkness, the same as in chapter 3. The Light verses are 5, 7 and 9. The darkness verses are 6, 8 and 10. The contrasts go back and forth. The Greek style would have been putting all the light in one paragraph and all the darkness in a separate paragraph. But John wasn't Greek.

Read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and watch out for getting too involved in the wisdom of man. The Spirit will let you see clearly the mindset of His Apostles, but especially the Spirit.

This is all very - nice - but can the soul die or be destroyed?
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
There is no following what this poster is claiming, it's all over the place.

. . . what?

However, the souls that died, and then find themselves standing before God, may want to adjust their "theology" because the soul that sinneth and died makes a miraculous come back to rise again!

Resurrection. Uh, what else do I need to say? Greek philosophy thought the soul was immortal. The Bible doesn't.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Did what again?

You tell me, the OP claims the soul is mortal, inexistent upon mortal death, so you'll need to ask them how these same souls stand before God.

Perhaps you can explain to the OP that no man is dead to the God who can raise up again, whether to life or condemnation. He apparently thinks they do it souless perhaps.

That would be silly to think that.

Your peacemaking attempts are virtuous.

If the OP wants to say the same thing as me, as you claim, then let them say it. So far the OP doesn't seem to say anything about your claim.

The OP, which I'm, made a very simple point. Greek philosophy says the soul is immortal, indestructible. The Bible says it can die or be destroyed.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You tell me, the OP claims the soul is mortal, inexistent upon mortal death, so you'll need to ask them how these same souls stand before God.
Don't associate me with the OP's beliefs. I just find it funny you two seem to be saying the same things, but you say no. I think I know the problem. You or the OP believes the spirit dies when the body dies. Whoever believes that is wrong. The live spirit leaves the dead body and if it is saved it goes to the Father awaiting the resurrection of the body. If the body of an unsaved person dies, their spirit is still alive and goes to the outer darkness, not to hell. Both the saved and unsaved spirits go back to their bodies when they are raised from the dead. There is debate if all the saved are raised in the first resurrection, but Revelation says only martyrs will reign with Christ for the 1000 years. Then comes the second resurrection when the unsaved live spirits from the outer darkness rejoin with their raised body and stand before the throne of God to be judged. It could be that the nominal Christians who never were martyred are raised in the second resurrection also and God checks all names to see if they are written in the Book of Life or not. If not they are thrown into the lake of fire which is called the "second" death, and that is when their mortal spirit can finally die. And of course, if their name IS written in the Book of Life they join their brethren in heaven.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Greek philosophy thought the soul was immortal. The Bible doesn't.

The spirit of an unsaved person does not die at the same time the body dies, even though the spirit is mortal. It will eventually die at the second death at the lake of fire, but not before. Between the death of the body and the second death, that unsaved spirit is alive in the outer darkness in pitch black and no sound except their own wailing and gnashing teeth.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
This is all very - nice - but can the soul die or be destroyed?

First off, it is the Old Testament that refers to a person as a soul. The New Testament is where the born again are triune - spirit, soul and body. Of the three the spirit and soul are the mind and conscience, otherwise known as the heart where the laws are written and become immortal while their body is still mortal awaiting the change to immortality.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
This is all very - nice - but can the soul die or be destroyed?

Another thing. Adam was created immortal. When he willfully sinned, his spirit, soul and body all became mortal. It is only a born again person whose spirit and soul become immortal first, and their mortal body will become immortal at the resurrection when it is changed.

Although the sins of the OT saints were passed over so as long as they served God they were immortal and went to heaven with Jesus when He ascended 40 days after His resurrection.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
The spirit of an unsaved person does not die at the same time the body dies, even though the spirit is mortal. It will eventually die at the second death at the lake of fire, but not before. Between the death of the body and the second death, that unsaved spirit is alive in the outer darkness in pitch black and no sound except their own wailing and gnashing teeth.

Did you get this idea from a movie or book?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Did you get this idea from a movie or book?
Neither, unless you are considering the Bible as a book. LOL

I'm 75 years old, and for the last 45 years when I was filled with the Spirit I can hear God's voice. About a decade or more ago I asked God to wipe away all man made teachings I've growing up with and beyond, and to start over and teach me not only the one true interpretation of His every verse in the Bible, but to give me revelation knowledge of His doctrines and their complexities. So I got the understanding of His doctrine on mortal vs. immortal from God Himself.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It'll come back to you. If it was ever there.
Not sure why you're having a problem here.
You're among those who claim the bible is untrustworthy because pagan and apostate sources have corrupted it.
So, how do you know which parts are secure and which parts are corrupted?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
All right, then, tell us what you think pagan means and why it matters.
Based entirely on your sources, you have previously established that the ideas you're bothered by are from pagan origins.

You developed a very clear and straightforward description, giving sources, to back up your beliefs about these issues.

All of these sources, you claim they are pagan or apostate sources.

Then you dismiss them as irrelevant.

Yet, they are clearly the source of your beliefs regarding the immortality of the soul.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
STVB, what does Ezekiel 18:4 and Matthew 10:28 say?
Where are the other several hundred passages that further develop the idea of the soul, and it's end?

These aren't the only passages that describe it.

In doing a word search, I get well over 700 instances of the word, nephesh, that describe the soul in various situations and conditions.

So, do you actually think that you have a valid position based solely on 2 verses?

Go do a comprehensive word search on soul, in the bible.
 
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CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Did you get this idea from a movie or book?



Matthew 8:12
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 22:13
Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 25:30
And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
 
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