The incoherency of libertarian free will

T

TomFL

Guest
Great scriptures. Your words not so great, confused even, not even. You have to due your words because you can't find them in the scripture.
Sorry you simply deny scripture and commentary

The unsaved do not have that root

The fruit of the spirit is for the saved who have the spirit indwelling


Galatians 5:1-25 (KJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

who are the Brethren

Who can walk in the spirit ?

The saved or the unsaved ?

Who are they that are Christs ?

The saved or the unsaved ?

Who lives by the spirit ?

The saved or the unsaved ?

BTW the passage says nothing about saving faith

You just assumed that

Faith is needed to live the Christian life

Fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the result of the Holy Spirit’s presence and working in the lives of maturing believers and is itemized in Galatians 5:22–23.

Fruit of the Spirit. Expression taken from Galatians 5:22, 23. As listed there, this fruit is the manifest evidence one may expect from a life in which the Spirit of God is living and reigning.

Wesley L. Gerig, “Fruit of the Spirit,” in Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, electronic ed., Baker reference library (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1996), 274.

“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance” (Gal. 5:22, 23). The true Christian virtues are the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of human effort. We have the fruit of the Spirit when we have the Spirit


Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology (Los Angeles, CA: L.I.F.E. Bible College, 1983), 291.


“In the NT the once-and-for-all nature of conversion is accompanied by exhortations to allow the “fruit of the Spirit,” who indwells disciples, to become manifest in their lives (Gal. 5:22-26).”

(Terrence Prendergast, S.J, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, s.v. “CONVERSION,” 277-278.)

Bald denials are not persuasive
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I believe free will can also be conclusively deduced from Scripture.
Of course it can, but it is NEVER pleasing to god.

Can you show me where in Scripture it shows that your free will choices pleases God, compared to where your obedience to the leading of the HS is pleasing to God.
Can you show us where your will be done and not God's will be done is taught?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Of course it can, but it is NEVER pleasing to god.
I thought you were a Calvinist, and Calvinism doesn't allow for freewill.
Can you show me where in Scripture it shows that your free will choices pleases God, ...
Loads. Here are a some:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the [pagan] Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the [pagan] Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the [pagan] Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation [Jew or Gentile] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

... compared to where your obedience to the leading of the HS is pleasing to God.
That is a deceptive addition. Then you are going to say, anybody who chooses to do any good, Jew or Gentile, pagan or Christian, are lead by the HS, therefore they had no freewill in the choices that they made. So the "freewiller" can never win! But that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the Spirit of God enlightens every man who comes into the world (John 1:9), without exception; therefore everyone has a sense of right and wrong, and can make the choice to do good or evil for themselves, and be rewarded or punished accordingly, as taught by Paul in Romans 2.
Can you show us where your will be done and not God's will be done is taught?
"Thy will be done" does not cancel out freewill. That is still a choice that man can make or not make. When Jesus said to the Father, "not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Matt. 26:39), it doesn't mean that he had no more freewill, or that he had abdicated his freewill. He was exercising his freewill to let the will of God prevail in his life, rather than his own will. You are not abrogating your freewill by allowing the will of God to prevail in your life, but exercising it to do so.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Of course it can, but it is NEVER pleasing to god.

I would argue it can never be MERITORIOUS to God, and this is not the same thing as pleasing.

 

Manfred

Well-known member
I thought you were a Calvinist, and Calvinism doesn't allow for freewill.

Loads. Here are a some:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the [pagan] Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the [pagan] Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the [pagan] Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation [Jew or Gentile] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
So you are not lead by the Spirit to follow instructions, rather you get up every day and decide that you will think about what you want to do that may please God.
That is a deceptive addition. Then you are going to say, anybody who chooses to do any good, Jew or Gentile, pagan or Christian, are lead by the HS, therefore they had no freewill in the choices that they made. So the "freewiller" can never win! But that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the Spirit of God enlightens every man who comes into the world (John 1:9), without exception; therefore everyone has a sense of right and wrong, and can make the choice to do good or evil for themselves, and be rewarded or punished accordingly, as taught by Paul in Romans 2.

"Thy will be done" does not cancel out freewill. That is still a choice that man can make or not make. When Jesus said to the Father,
"not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Matt. 26:39), it doesn't mean that he had no more freewill, or that he had abdicated his freewill. He was exercising his freewill to let the will of God prevail in his life, rather than his own will. You are not abrogating your freewill by allowing the will of God to prevail in your life, but exercising it to do so.
Not every man is lead by the Holy Spirit. That would just be bad theology.
Every man is lead by his will. Nothing done in the flesh is pleasing to God whether good or bad.

Read Isaiah 64 if you are uncertain about that.

You want glory for good works done.
I will always give God glory for the works he does through me.
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13 ESV
 

zerinus

Well-known member
So you are not lead by the Spirit to follow instructions, rather you get up every day and decide that you will think about what you want to do that may please God.
Faulty premises and false assumptions all the way through. Being “lead by the Spirit” does not abrogate or cancel out one’s freewill. You choose to follow the Spirit by the exercise of your freewill.
Not every man is lead by the Holy Spirit. That would just be bad theology.
It depends on what you mean by “lead by the Holy Spirit”. If you mean that everyone has the gift of the Holy Ghost, the answer is no. Only baptized Church members can have the gift of the Holy Ghost. But if you mean everyone has the light of Christ in them, that enlightens every man that comes into the world (John 1:9), that enables everyone to have a sense of right and wrong (and makes them accountable before God for their actions), the answer is yes. That is what the Bible teaches.
Every man is lead by his will. Nothing done in the flesh is pleasing to God whether good or bad.
Not according to Romans 2:6-16, Acts 10:34-35.
Read Isaiah 64 if you are uncertain about that.
Isaiah 64 doesn’t reach what you think it does.
You want glory for good works done.
No such thing. That is because you being lead astray by a heretical theology that denies the moral responsibility and free agency of man.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Faulty premises and false assumptions all the way through. Being “lead by the Spirit” does not abrogate or cancel out one’s freewill. You choose to follow the Spirit by the exercise of your freewill.
You choose to be lead by the Holy Spirit?
How does that work exactly?
It depends on what you mean by “lead by the Holy Spirit”. If you mean that everyone has the gift of the Holy Ghost, the answer is no. Only baptized Church members can have the gift of the Holy Ghost. But if you mean everyone has the light of Christ in them, that enlightens every man that comes into the world (John 1:9), that enables everyone to have a sense of right and wrong (and makes them accountable before God for their actions), the answer is yes. That is what the Bible teaches.
Nope. The Bible does not teach that.
Nature reveals that God exists.
Without spiritual rebirth you can not comprehend any spiritual truths.
So you can make any choise you set your heart on and it will remain ultimately useless.
Not according to Romans 2:6-16, Acts 10:34-35.

Isaiah 64 doesn’t reach what you think it does.
How insightful. You think your good works that you decide to do glorify God.. They are like filthy rags to Him.
You also think the HG is a seperate god
How can another God lead you to worship and follow the other God.
It makes no sense.
No such thing. That is because you being lead astray by a heretical theology that denies the moral responsibility and free agency of man.
I told you that every man is free to do whatever they want. It will not please God, for then your will be done, and not God's will be done.

You will never be able to accept the Sovereignty of God, because you yourself want to be God, therefore you keep glorifying your will, as you are looking for some credit. A nice pat on the back, and a "you were good enough to be exalted" praise.
So it would be clear to all the members here who is lead astray by heresy.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You choose to be lead by the Holy Spirit?
How does that work exactly?
1 Peter 1:

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:


How hard is that to understand?

Nope. The Bible does not teach that.
Nature reveals that God exists.
Without spiritual rebirth you can not comprehend any spiritual truths.
So you can make any choise you set your heart on and it will remain ultimately useless.
Your word against the Bible's:

Romans 1:

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

How insightful. You think your good works that you decide to do glorify God.. They are like filthy rags to Him.
Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Whom should I believe more, you or God?

You also think the HG is a seperate god
How can another God lead you to worship and follow the other God.
It makes no sense.

I told you that every man is free to do whatever they want. It will not please God, for then your will be done, and not God's will be done.

You will never be able to accept the Sovereignty of God, because you yourself want to be God, therefore you keep glorifying your will, as you are looking for some credit. A nice pat on the back, and a "you were good enough to be exalted" praise.
So it would be clear to all the members here who is lead astray by heresy.
The rest of your post is trash, no comment needed.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
1 Peter 1:

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:


How hard is that to understand?
Not hard at all when you understand that obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit is not obedience to the leading of your free will.
How hard is that to understand?
Your word against the Bible's:

Romans 1:

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Whom should I believe more, you or God?
Well, do not believe your faulty interpretation where ultimately you get the glory. I have already said everyone can know God exists.
You need revelation to believe Jesus Christ and God are one and not 2 separate gods, one who has incomplete divine attributes.

As is evident, you believe whatever tickles your ears and try and make a theology from it.
You are fooling no one here.
The rest of your post is trash, no comment needed.
Because you hate truth you call it trash.
Again, you show your true colors.
 
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