The King Follett Discourse

If you're asking who knows, then I guess you're not the person to ask.

No one is able to make something out of nothing. :rolleyes: The fact that you think your God is able to begs the question, is your God real? You realize that nothing in the Bible supports that claim. It doesn't say God made everything out of nothing. That theology came to you all by the Catholics. They made it up. You guys kept it. As I've said before, you guys believe in magic, we don't.

That points directly to the biological fact that in order to produce a human child, it takes a human father and a human mother. That's never going to change. But that's okay. If you feel good about your beliefs, I don't have a problem with that. It doesn't make them true. On the other hand, we know how children are made. It's not rocket science. I can prove my theology, can you prove yours?
Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Uh huh. Where do you see that anything was made from nothing or the claim that it was? Do you believe in magic? I guess you do. Only nothing can be created from nothing.

From the top, In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters....

Now, where, in all of that, do you see that anything was created from nothing? The waters already existed. The earth was without form. It doesn't say nothing was there. In fact, it says that something was, in fact, there. So much for creation ex nihilo.

As I said, the theology preached here doesn't come from the Bible. It was manufactured by a church that you all claim is a heretical cult but you accept their version that isn't found in the Bible. And you all repeat it like a parrot. How does that work? You all say they are wrong but you keep repeating what they taught you and never consider the scriptures they claim they came from.

Here's a general rule of thumb that I have never seen any exception to... If one is to create anything, one must do it with the materials available. If I create a house, I must cut down trees and make lumber. Even if I were to 3D print a house, I must still supply the printer with the materials to print the house with. Only nothing comes from nothing.

The Bible suggests that there were materials and that he used those materials which were without form with which He formed an earth. Creating something from nothing simply does not exist in the universe. Not even God can create something from nothing.

As for the fish and the bread, I believe the miracle was in that the people ate and were filled. A little went a long way. Sure, they started with very little, but they didn't start with nothing. This isn't the first time this kind of miracle occurred. The same thing occurred with the widow of Zarephath. Elijah promised the widow "The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the LORD sends rain upon the earth." Did the jar and the jug magically produce flour and water out of nothing? That would be magic right? No. There was so little the widow was preparing a morsel for her and her son and then she was prepared to die. She wasn't even willing to share what she had because there was barely enough to feed two people, but like mana from heaven or quail to starving saints or seagulls to saving crops, the Lord makes a way to fill the jug and jar. It doesn't come from within the jar. It comes from outside of the jar where materials can be gathered to make the contents that go in the jar. The widow had something. It just wasn't very much. If she had had nothing. That would be a different story. It might be a mystery to us how that occurred, but it isn't to God. Just because it's a mystery doesn't mean it was created from nothing.

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus performed a similar miracle only in this rendition, no one brought anything for the bread and wine and yet there was enough for everyone and they were filled. Did it come from nothing? No. If humans came from dust, I think bread and wine would be less difficult to create, but their appearance didn't come from nothing.

There is no such thing as creation ex nihilo. That's just a fabricated story that parents tell their children for entertainment.
 
Uh huh. Where do you see that anything was made from nothing or the claim that it was? Do you believe in magic? I guess you do. Only nothing can be created from nothing.

From the top, In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters....

Now, where, in all of that, do you see that anything was created from nothing? The waters already existed. The earth was without form. It doesn't say nothing was there. In fact, it says that something was, in fact, there. So much for creation ex nihilo.

As I said, the theology preached here doesn't come from the Bible. It was manufactured by a church that you all claim is a heretical cult but you accept their version that isn't found in the Bible. And you all repeat it like a parrot. How does that work? You all say they are wrong but you keep repeating what they taught you and never consider the scriptures they claim they came from.

Here's a general rule of thumb that I have never seen any exception to... If one is to create anything, one must do it with the materials available. If I create a house, I must cut down trees and make lumber. Even if I were to 3D print a house, I must still supply the printer with the materials to print the house with. Only nothing comes from nothing.

The Bible suggests that there were materials and that he used those materials which were without form with which He formed an earth. Creating something from nothing simply does not exist in the universe. Not even God can create something from nothing.

As for the fish and the bread, I believe the miracle was in that the people ate and were filled. A little went a long way. Sure, they started with very little, but they didn't start with nothing. This isn't the first time this kind of miracle occurred. The same thing occurred with the widow of Zarephath. Elijah promised the widow "The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the LORD sends rain upon the earth." Did the jar and the jug magically produce flour and water out of nothing? That would be magic right? No. There was so little the widow was preparing a morsel for her and her son and then she was prepared to die. She wasn't even willing to share what she had because there was barely enough to feed two people, but like mana from heaven or quail to starving saints or seagulls to saving crops, the Lord makes a way to fill the jug and jar. It doesn't come from within the jar. It comes from outside of the jar where materials can be gathered to make the contents that go in the jar. The widow had something. It just wasn't very much. If she had had nothing. That would be a different story. It might be a mystery to us how that occurred, but it isn't to God. Just because it's a mystery doesn't mean it was created from nothing.

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus performed a similar miracle only in this rendition, no one brought anything for the bread and wine and yet there was enough for everyone and they were filled. Did it come from nothing? No. If humans came from dust, I think bread and wine would be less difficult to create, but their appearance didn't come from nothing.

There is no such thing as creation ex nihilo. That's just a fabricated story that parents tell their children for entertainment.

It means that human understanding is puny and minuscule compared to God’s knowledge and power.

Mormonism tries to minimize and humanize God, to prop up their desire to become gods. So you put limits on His power and try to confine Him to a physical body and laws of nature that you can comprehend.

According to God, the reality is something we wouldn’t even be able to think of.
 
Mormonism tries to minimize and humanize God,
I think the problem is that most Christians try to dehumanize God and distance themselves from him as far as possible. I have no idea why they do that. Was Jesus human? Yes. If that is true, then there is no reason why God the Father can't be human and still be every bit as much as Jesus is.

The sad thing is that this trend was established by Hellenistic philosophies that infiltrated the church which alienated God from His people. The earliest creeds insisted that God had no body, yet they hung that body on a cross, that he had no passion, yet he loved us, sending his Son to reveal Him to us and yet we killed him. God is human. He is real and tangible and we are his children, all of us.
 
This is a fantastic post to demonstrate some of the major errors in Mormonism.

I think the problem is that most Christians try to dehumanize God and distance themselves from him as far as possible.

First of all, your question is fallacious, since in order to "dehumanize" God [the Father], he would first have to be "human". But this this is nothing more than your unsubstantiated ASSUMPTION.

Num. 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.

["Son of man" is a euphemism for "human", one born of a human.]

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together.

1 Sam. 15:29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

[Jesus is here speaking of the Father, contrasting God [who is Spirit] from the physical places Jews and Samaritans worshipped Him.]

Secondly, you keep conflating the Father and the Son. The Father is not the Son. Further below, you make the blunder of claiming the Father's body hung on the cross. It didn't. That was the Son's body.

Third, you falsely assume that recognizing that God is not a human results in "distancing [ourselves] from Him". I would argue that claiming God is something that He's NOT (as Mormons do) is what "distances" people from Him.

Was Jesus human? Yes. If that is true, then there is no reason why God the Father can't be human and still be every bit as much as Jesus is.

First of all, you are again conflating the Father and the Son. Just because I'm a certified teacher doesn't mean that you are. And just because Son took on a body of flesh, doesn't mean that the Father did.

And deity isn't "inherently" human, it was only Jesus who TOOK ON a body of flesh at His incarnation. He had to take on the body, as it's not inherent in deity to have a body of flesh (see above).

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Phil. 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

1Tim. 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Heb. 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Heb. 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;

1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

2John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The earliest creeds insisted that God had no body,

Because the earliest creeds are based on SCRIPTURE (see above).

yet they hung that body on a cross, that he had no passion, yet he loved us, sending his Son to reveal Him to us and yet we killed him.

God the Father didn't hang on a cross.
The Son did.
And it was because He TOOK ON a body of flesh (see above), not because God is inherently human.

God is human. He is real and tangible and we are his children, all of us.

Wrong again.
We are God's CREATIONS, not His "children":

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;
male and female
he created them.

Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

Deut. 4:32 “For ask now of the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether such a great thing as this has ever happened or was ever heard of.

Isa. 45:12 I made the earth and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.


God and man are represented in Scripture as "Potter and clay", not "Potter and Potter's sons".


Jesus is the ONLY (inherent) Son of God:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Those who are Christians BECOME sons through ADOPTION:

Rom. 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

Gal. 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Eph. 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
 
This is a fantastic post to demonstrate some of the major errors in Mormonism.

First of all, your question is fallacious, since in order to "dehumanize" God [the Father], he would first have to be "human". But this this is nothing more than your unsubstantiated ASSUMPTION.

I suppose we better hope God the Son was human--the salvation of mankind hangs on that premise.

You do believe God died for the sins of the whole world?

Num. 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.

["Son of man" is a euphemism for "human", one born of a human.]

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together.

1 Sam. 15:29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I believe there is a problem with assuming your position on those scriptures also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So--two problems which are presented to your position here:

1) The scriptures affirms God the Son is a man.
2) If God is spirit only--then who was this?

Luke 24:39---King James Version
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

IOW--if one assumes God is a Spirit only--then God the Son would be eliminated as that God.

Theo--since you posted some OT scripture--it's necessary to note--Jesus Christ, God the Son--was the God of the OT, so you won't be able to run to the "Father" differentiation, in order to explain that anomaly in the critic's position here, as in, "God is not man".
 
Wrong again.
We are God's CREATIONS, not His "children":

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;
male and female
he created them.

Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

Deut. 4:32 “For ask now of the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether such a great thing as this has ever happened or was ever heard of.

Isa. 45:12 I made the earth and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.


God and man are represented in Scripture as "Potter and clay", not "Potter and Potter's sons".

Since the scriptures testify God is the Father of spirits--and we His offspring--that transcends your position by quite a sizeable margin:

Hebrews 12:9--King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
 
Jesus is the ONLY (inherent) Son of God:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

That is a reference pertaining to the flesh:

John 1:14---King James Version

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

IOW--Jesus Christ is the only man ever born to this earth, who had an earthly mother (Mary)--and a heavenly Father.

All the rest, as to the flesh--had two earthly parents.

Jesus testified all share the same God and Father--as to the spirit:

John 20:17----King James Version
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
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