The King Follett Discourse

The Prophet said:
The Book of Mormon definitely teaches the Trinity ​

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation

Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Click to expand...

Not your Trinitarian theology. In the Book of Mormon Trinitarian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are concentrated in Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who is at the same time the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them, I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to temptation, …

3 Nephi 1:

14 Behold, I come unto my own to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world; and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son: of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh.

Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.

Ether 3:

14 Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally.

Mormon 9:

12 And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son.

Ether 4:

12 … and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father. I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

This is the Trinitarian theology that the Book of Mormon teaches, which is NOT the same as YOUR Trinitarian theology.
 
zerinus said:
Not your Trinitarian theology. In the Book of Mormon Trinitarian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are concentrated in Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who is at the same time the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them, I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to temptation, …

3 Nephi 1:

14 Behold, I come unto my own to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world; and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son: of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh.

Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.

Ether 3:

14 Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally.

Mormon 9:

12 And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son.

Ether 4:

12 … and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father. I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

This is the Trinitarian theology that the Book of Mormon teaches, which is NOT the same as YOUR Trinitarian theology.
Click to expand...
You just identified modalism in the Book of Mormon, which is not the Trinity​

http://carm.org/heresies
 
Aaron32 said:
I personally do not see any scripture Joseph Smith could be getting this.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to understand what a "prophet" is.

Aaron32 said:
Thus, there is no standard by which any Mormon should be painted of believing the King Follett discourse just on the virtue of being a Mormon.
Click to expand...

Over the decades, I've talked to HUNDREDS of Mormons, and you're the only one I've ever encountered who doesn't believe it.
 
Aaron32 said:
I think many think Mormons just check their brains at the door, as if we just omit all logic and reason.
The King Follett discourse has not been canonized, but beyond that, let’s set why a Mormon would reject it.

Let’s look at Joseph’s own standard to prove his case:

So first: Joseph appeals to our own witness of the Holy Ghost -

“My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.”

Then he tells us how he supports his claim:
...for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

Here is the claim:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”

As we can see, from the get go, this is unscriptural. (Moroni 8:18)

Later, he continues:
“What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—“

(Quoting John 5:26)

“to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.”

I personally do not see any scripture Joseph Smith could be getting this.

So there you have it. Joseph contradicted himself, I (personally) don’t feel the Spirit on it. And true to his word, that was basically his last address. He died two months later.

Thus, there is no standard by which any Mormon should be painted of believing the King Follett discourse just on the virtue of being a Mormon.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been trying to get a discussion going for a long time, looking at this sermon piece by piece.

Joseph Smith basically said he was speaking for God. He spent a great deal of time right off saying that if he was speaking for God, they should just shut up, stop doubting or wanting to kill him. And if he wasn’t, then he should just give it up and admit he was a false prophet.

“My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.”

“I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.”

So, paraphrasing, sit down, shut up and listen to a prophet speak for God.

“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”

Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon

www.utlm.org

He never did show it from the Bible, because it isn't in there. He basically told them a bunch of false doctrine, said it came from God thru him, a prophet, and even told them if it wasn’t true then he’s a false prophet.

Thats pretty much the only thing he got right... that he was a false prophet.

A person really doesn’t need to go any further than that into mormonism. It ends there, or it should have.
 
Magdalena said:
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been trying to get a discussion going for a long time, looking at this sermon piece by piece.

Joseph Smith basically said he was speaking for God. He spent a great deal of time right off saying that if he was speaking for God, they should just shut up, stop doubting or wanting to kill him. And if he wasn’t, then he should just give it up and admit he was a false prophet.

“My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.”

“I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.”

So, paraphrasing, sit down, shut up and listen to a prophet speak for God.

“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”

Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon

www.utlm.org

He never did show it from the Bible, because it isn't in there. He basically told them a bunch of false doctrine, said it came from God thru him, a prophet, and even told them if it wasn’t true then he’s a false prophet.

Thats pretty much the only thing he got right... that he was a false prophet.

A person really doesn’t need to go any further than that into mormonism. It ends there, or it should have.
Click to expand...
This sermon is found in 3 different books in the Mormon faith so it must be correct theology to a Mormon

(“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.

6, 305-307,)"
 
Magdalena said:
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been trying to get a discussion going for a long time, looking at this sermon piece by piece.

Joseph Smith basically said he was speaking for God. He spent a great deal of time right off saying that if he was speaking for God, they should just shut up, stop doubting or wanting to kill him. And if he wasn’t, then he should just give it up and admit he was a false prophet.

“My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.”

“I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.”

So, paraphrasing, sit down, shut up and listen to a prophet speak for God.

“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”

Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon

www.utlm.org

He never did show it from the Bible, because it isn't in there. He basically told them a bunch of false doctrine, said it came from God thru him, a prophet, and even told them if it wasn’t true then he’s a false prophet.

Thats pretty much the only thing he got right... that he was a false prophet.

A person really doesn’t need to go any further than that into mormonism. It ends there, or it should have.
Click to expand...
No, he never proved it from the Bible. All he did was teach blasphemy, pure and simple, that God was not always God but was a man "on an earth" who had to LEARN how to become a God.....I know some Mormons on here for years have tried to deny this, but it is true--Smith did teach this. IF these Mormons find this so disturbing, then perhaps they should ask themselves WHY it disturbs them....
 
Magdalena said:
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been trying to get a discussion going for a long time, looking at this sermon piece by piece.

Joseph Smith basically said he was speaking for God. He spent a great deal of time right off saying that if he was speaking for God, they should just shut up, stop doubting or wanting to kill him. And if he wasn’t, then he should just give it up and admit he was a false prophet.

“My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true, God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world—a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.”

“I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority.”

So, paraphrasing, sit down, shut up and listen to a prophet speak for God.

“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”

Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon

www.utlm.org

He never did show it from the Bible, because it isn't in there. He basically told them a bunch of false doctrine, said it came from God thru him, a prophet, and even told them if it wasn’t true then he’s a false prophet.

Thats pretty much the only thing he got right... that he was a false prophet.

A person really doesn’t need to go any further than that into mormonism. It ends there, or it should have.
Click to expand...
Good post!
 
zerinus said:
Whatever it is, it is not your Trinitarian theology. So quit telling us that it is.
Click to expand...
This below is Trinity Theology ​

E. Calvin Beisner

God in Three Persons



The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.



We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24


“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

Trinity

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]



One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.


All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]

Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God

2. The Father is God;

3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God

5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

(n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.
 
I love our Triune God! This was my prayer before I left Mormonism. I prayed to God and asked Him to teach me Who He really is. God taught me the Truth. I shared this truth when I was speaking about Mormonism n a church. Some modalists were present and interrupted me to disgree about our the true God. Afterwards I decided to educate myself about modalism. Mormons and Modalists don't know God. :(
 
Last edited:
Janice Bower said:
I love our Triune God! This was my prayer before I left Mormonism. I prayed to God and asked Him to teach me Who He really is. God taught me the Truth. I shared this truth when I was speaking about Mormonism n a church. Some modalists were present and interrupted me to disgree about our the true God. Afterwards I decided to educate myself about modalism. Mormons and Modalists don't know God. :(
Click to expand...
I'm happy you came to understand God. To most people it remains a mystery.
 
The Prophet said:
This sermon is found in 3 different books in the Mormon faith so it must be correct theology to a Mormon

(“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.

6, 305-307,)"
Click to expand...
It was also published in the Ensign magazine in the 1970s.
 
Aaron32 said:
I'm happy you came to understand God. To most people it remains a mystery.
Click to expand...
Doesn't the Book of Mormon teach God is a mystery also along with James E Talmage :)

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Mormon 9:16
16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)
Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)
Click to expand...

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16)
Click to expand...
Paul implies this incomprehensibility of God when he says that “the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God,” and then goes on to say that “no one comprehends the things of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:10–12). At the end of a long discussion on the history of God’s great plan of redemption, Paul breaks forth into praise: “O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom. 11:33).

Grudem, Wayne A. (2014-10-27T23:58:59). Bible Doctrine . Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.
These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes—his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments—are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

James E. Talmage Mormon faux Elder
Articles of Faith
Chapter 2
God is Omniscient—By Him matter has been organized and energy directed. He is therefore the Creator of all things that are created; and "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." 58 His power and His wisdom are alike incomprehensible to man, for they are infinite. Being Himself eternal and perfect, His knowledge cannot be otherwise than infinite. To comprehend Himself, an infinite Being, He must possess an infinite mind. Through the agency of angels and ministering servants He is in continuous communication with all parts of creation, and may personally visit as He may determine.
 
The Prophet said:
Doesn't the Book of Mormon teach God is a mystery also along with James E Talmage :)

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Mormon 9:16
16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?




Paul implies this incomprehensibility of God when he says that “the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God,” and then goes on to say that “no one comprehends the things of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:10–12). At the end of a long discussion on the history of God’s great plan of redemption, Paul breaks forth into praise: “O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom. 11:33).

Grudem, Wayne A. (2014-10-27T23:58:59). Bible Doctrine . Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.
These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes—his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments—are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

James E. Talmage Mormon faux Elder
Articles of Faith
Chapter 2
God is Omniscient—By Him matter has been organized and energy directed. He is therefore the Creator of all things that are created; and "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." 58 His power and His wisdom are alike incomprehensible to man, for they are infinite. Being Himself eternal and perfect, His knowledge cannot be otherwise than infinite. To comprehend Himself, an infinite Being, He must possess an infinite mind. Through the agency of angels and ministering servants He is in continuous communication with all parts of creation, and may personally visit as He may determine.
Click to expand...
Eh, maybe so, and that's great news. Like I told another poster, I don't believe we are saved on the basis how well we understand God, but simply accepting Jesus as our Savior. Eternal Life (knowing God) is a result from our salvation, not the other way around. Clearly, Nephite writers were writing from a different perspective than those who live in the fulness of times.

Yet, that doesn't mean that's the end, or that we're limited to chalking God up to a mystery:

D&C 88:
49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.
50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.
 
Getting back to the original topic: Joseph did teach that the mormon gods had to learn to become gods. He also taught that the mormon gods could not create intelligences/[souls], which meant that they had limited powers. The mormon gods then are obviously not transcendent, but are merely creatures that have progressed to a level of godhood.

This was never taught by Jesus or the primitive Christian church, nor was it taught by the various sect of Judaism. So the question remains; if one believes in a false christ, as Jesus warned would happen, can that false jesus save those who believe in and adhere to that false [jesus] christ? Jesus indicated that many would be fooled by those false christs, and that even the elect would be tested; but He did not teach that believing in a false christ would also lead to salvation. That is our position. Mormons clearly believe in false deities whom they address by the same names and titles as found in the OT & NT, therefore, the false theology of mormon deities is clearly contrary to what is taught in the OT & NT. This error of theology is clearly displayed in Joseph's kfd, but unfortunately, false deities are incapable of provifing either salvation or exaltation to mankind.
 
Yitoz said:
Getting back to the original topic: Joseph did teach that the mormon gods had to learn to become gods. He also taught that the mormon gods could not create intelligences/[souls], which meant that they had limited powers. The mormon gods then are obviously not transcendent, but are merely creatures that have progressed to a level of godhood.
Click to expand...
Agreed. That's the history of Mormon theology - it started out in the Lectures on Faith (the "doctrine" of the "doctrine and covenants"
Then the King Follett Discourse.
Then the Adam God theory.
And the Talmage-ite version of Heavenly Fathers and Heavenly Mothers.

Personally, I disagree with Talmage, I'm somewhere between the KFD and Adam God.

Yitoz said:
This was never taught by Jesus or the primitive Christian church, nor was it taught by the various sect of Judaism. So the question remains; if one believes in a false christ, as Jesus warned would happen, can that false jesus save those who believe in and adhere to that false [jesus] christ?
Click to expand...
Yes. Because it's by the principles of the Gospel we are saved, found both in Bible the BoM on the way back.

Yitoz said:
Jesus indicated that many would be fooled by those false christs, and that even the elect would be tested; but He did not teach that believing in a false christ would also lead to salvation.
Click to expand...
That's an argument from absence, declaring a premise on something never said.
We can only determine what his meaning is on what He DID say.

Yitoz said:
That is our position. Mormons clearly believe in false deities whom they address by the same names and titles as found in the OT & NT, therefore, the false theology of mormon deities is clearly contrary to what is taught in the OT & NT. This error of theology is clearly displayed in Joseph's kfd, but unfortunately, false deities are incapable of provifing either salvation or exaltation to mankind.
Click to expand...
If you understand the Doctrine of Christ, and the degrees of Glory (the Kingdom), then the KFD is the next logical step.
That man is eternal, and exists on a self-existent principle. The law by which he chooses to live determines the kingdom in which he lives.
When we receive a fulness of glory, we become One with God.

Eventually the church must realize this, and redact teachings on Heavenly Mother, but the Church is pretty sick in cultural teachings right now.

And yeah, that's not taught in traditional Christianity. That's why a restoration was required.
 

Matthew 24:23-25 King James Version​

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mark 13:21-23 King James Version ​

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Jesus clearly warned us that false prophets and christs would show up and try to lead believers away from the truth. This describes Joseph and his teachings of false gods in the kfd.​

​



​


​

 
Yitoz said:

Matthew 24:23-25 King James Version​

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.​

​

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

​

25 Behold, I have told you before.​

​

​

Mark 13:21-23 King James Version ​

​

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:​

​

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.​

​

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.​

​

Jesus clearly warned us that false prophets and christs would show up and try to lead believers away from the truth.​

Click to expand...
Agreed.
Yitoz said:

This describes Joseph and his teachings of false gods in the kfd.​

Click to expand...
That's your claim, adding to the Bible.
 
Aaron32 said:
That's your claim, adding to the Bible.
Click to expand...
Unlike Joseph, I merely cited the references; I didn't change them as Joseph did in his jst. If you don't agree with my interpretation,that is one thing, but now you have accused me of adding to the Bible. You do err; adding to the Bible and distorting Bible passages is a mormon practice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top