The Kingdom of God

Tercon

Well-known member
No, you cannot. Whenever you try you get it wrong. You are not a mind-reader.

I don't have to be a mind reader to tell what you know and think silly, as you have been telling me for years what you know and think. You have told me that you disbelieve belief has the capacity to make the truth and reality known to you, thus the truth and reality is knowable to you without a believing mind. And you know of mind independent realities. So yes I know things about you, mainly that you hate the truth, reality and the means by which they are made known. Why? Because you have a unbelieving mind and your unbelieving mind keeps the truth and reality unknown to you. If you get tired of being without the truth and reality, let me know, as I can show you how it is known to you.

I didn't claim to know God doesn't exist.

Sure you do. The problem is that the truth and reality itself is God. And that's completely knowable, because both truth and reality require and entail a believing mind in order to occur and exist. So, the truth and reality entails of its Creator's believing mind in order to occur and exist.

I claim only that you've given no good reason to think that He does. Knowledge does not require false belief. It requires only true belief, and you have not shown that belief in God would be true rather than false.

Not true. I have given you a good reason above to believe that a Creator exists.

Wrong again. Almost everyone believes MIPUST to be reality. You are the exception here, not me.

You are wallowing in a delusion silly, as there is no such thing as a mind-independent truth or reality, when both truth and reality require and entail a believing mind in order to occur and exist.

Unsupported. You need to prove that God, rather than MIPUST, is truth and reality.

God is completely knowable, because both truth and reality require and entail a believing mind in order to occur and exist. So, the truth and reality entails of its Creator's believing mind in order to occur and exist.

Just as soon as you stop pretending to know physics better than physicists.

I know the truth and reality better than unbelievers, as if physicality is an occurrence and all occurrences require and entail a believing mind in order to have a way and place to occur, then physicality too requires and entails a believing mind in order to occur and exist. And if you and physicists haven't figured that out yet, then neither of you know much about how and why the logical truth and reality work.

Loaded question. That's your (still ambiguous) premise, not mine. Knowledge is mind-dependent, but MIPUST (by definition) is not.

If "MIPUST" is mind independent, then how is it known to exist silly?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I don't have to be a mind reader to tell what you know and think silly, as you have been telling me for years what you know and think.
But you keep getting it wrong. When you claim to know what I think, and then attribute to me things I've never said, you are then pretending to be a mind reader.

Sure you do. The problem is that the truth and reality itself is God. And that's completely knowable, because both truth and reality require and entail a believing mind in order to occur and exist. So, the truth and reality entails of its Creator's believing mind in order to occur and exist.
Unsupported that reality is God or that it requires a mind in order to exist.

Not true. I have given you a good reason above to believe that a Creator exists.
No you have not. Your claim remains unsupported.

You are wallowing in a delusion silly...
You are projecting.

God is completely knowable, because both truth and reality require and entail a believing mind in order to occur and exist. So, the truth and reality entails of its Creator's believing mind in order to occur and exist.
Can you explain why you think reality requires a mind in order to exist? So far you've just asserted it without argument.

I know the truth and reality better than unbelievers, as if physicality is an occurrence and all occurrences require and entail a believing mind in order to have a way and place to occur, then physicality too requires and entails a believing mind in order to occur and exist. And if you and physicists haven't figured that out yet, then neither of you know much about how and why the logical truth and reality work.
You don't know physics better than physicists, and you should stop pretending that you do.

If "MIPUST" is mind independent, then how is it known to exist silly?
We use our minds to know MIPUST. As you've been told before, mind-independence concerns the existence of a thing, not our knowledge of it.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
But you keep getting it wrong. When you claim to know what I think, and then attribute to me things I've never said, you are then pretending to be a mind reader.

No I didn't it wrong, you just lack the courage to deal with the truth about what is being said to you.

Unsupported that reality is God or that it requires a mind in order to exist.
Can you explain why you think reality requires a mind in order to exist? So far you've just asserted it without argument.

The truth and reality exists and occurs, because it is self-refuting to say otherwise. But it is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind. So, if the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then reality must a believing mind or the product of a believing mind. And you have not said one word to refute this.

You don't know physics better than physicists, and you should stop pretending that you do.

Strawman. I know the truth and reality better than you and any physicists I know of.

We use our minds to know MIPUST.

If you have to use a mind "to know MIPUST" exists or occurs, then MIPUST requires and entails a believing mind in order to exist and occur silly.

As you've been told before, mind-independence concerns the existence of a thing, not our knowledge of it.

And existence entails something existing or an occurrence. So, if existence entails something existing and an occurrence, then existence to requires and entails of a way and place in order for something exist and occur in or with.

So hard you try to hide the truth and reality from yourself.
 
Last edited:

Nouveau

Well-known member
No I didn't it wrong...
Yes, you did get it wrong. You said I think knowledge is possible without a mind. That is wrong. Show me where I've ever said that.

The truth and reality exists and occurs, because it is self-refuting to say otherwise. But it is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind. So, if the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then reality must a believing mind or the product of a believing mind. And you have not said one word to refute this.
I've refuted it many times. You are again trading on the ambiguity between locating knowledge and locating reality. Of course our knowledge of reality requires a mind, but that doesn't show that reality itself requires a mind. On that point you are merely begging the question. You can't explain why you think reality requires a mind - at least not without conflating knowledge and existence. All you ever do is assert it.

Strawman. I know the truth and reality better than you and any physicists I know of.
You don't know physics better than physicists, and you should stop pretending that you do.

If you have to use a mind "to know MIPUST" exists or occurs, then MIPUST requires and entails a believing mind in order to exist and occur silly.
That doesn't follow at all. MIPUST requires a mind to be known, but it does not require a mind in order to exist.

And existence entails something existing or an occurrence. So, if existence entails something existing and an occurrence, then existence to requires and entails of a way and place in order for something exist and occur in or with.
Yes, and...? Did you understand a single word you were responding to when making this post?
 

e v e

Super Member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality of God can be known to exist is in and by believing mind, then the only way and place that the truth and reality of God can be known to exist is in and by His and our believing minds. So, God's Kingdom must exist in His and His believers believing minds, because outside of a our believing minds no truth and reality is knowable.

But if you disagree, then please name at least one other way or place that the truth and reality can be known to exist outside or without a believing mind. No scoffing please.



a soul can meet Him, in reality and not in the mind.

the ego-mind is what blocks you.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
a soul can meet Him, in reality and not in the mind.

the ego-mind is what blocks you.

But my dear what do you do about the fact that the only way and place that reality can be known and experienced by you is in and with your believing mind? Now, I am not suggesting that minds themselves can't be blocked, but still the only way and place that can make the truth and reality known to you in your believing mind. So, if there is something blocking the mind from believing the truth and experiencing the reality of God, then the mind must be renewed in order to believe the truth.
 

e v e

Super Member
But my dear what do you do about the fact that the only way and place that reality can be known and experienced by you is in and with your believing mind? Now, I am not suggesting that minds themselves can't be blocked, but still the only way and place that can make the truth and reality known to you in your believing mind. So, if there is something blocking the mind from believing the truth and experiencing the reality of God, then the mind must be renewed in order to believe the truth.
my souls knows in a different way that the mind knows.

i could show you how but even then i don’t know if you would see.
 

e v e

Super Member
my souls knows in a different way that the mind knows.

i can show you how.
But my dear what do you do about the fact that the only way and place that reality can be known and experienced by you is in and with your believing mind? Now, I am not suggesting that minds themselves can't be blocked, but still the only way and place that can make the truth and reality known to you in your believing mind. So, if there is something blocking the mind from believing the truth and experiencing the reality of God, then the mind must be renewed in order to believe the truth.
the most important thing to understand is that sin = this body and that eden is in the other world.

what you spend a lot of time one will not help you.
 

e v e

Super Member
… i did a thought experiment with my phi 101 students… but… it would need its own thread and some willing participants.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
my souls knows in a different way that the mind knows.

i could show you how but even then i don’t know if you would see.

How does your soul inform you of anything that your mind doesn't make known to you?

the most important thing to understand is that sin = this body and that eden is in the other world.

what you spend a lot of time one will not help you.

So are you suggesting that God isn't knowable to us in this world? I agree that God isn't known to us through our physical senses, because that's not how God tells us in the Bible He is experienced. He tells us in the Bible that He makes Himself known to us through belief and our believing minds and not our physical sense.

… i did a thought experiment with my phi 101 students… but… it would need its own thread and some willing participants.

Okay. I will participate.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Yes, you did get it wrong. You said I think knowledge is possible without a mind. That is wrong. Show me where I've ever said that.

Is your "MIPUST" mind-independent or not? If you disbelieve in belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to you, then this unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknown to you.

I've refuted it many times. You are again trading on the ambiguity between locating knowledge and locating reality. Of course our knowledge of reality requires a mind, but that doesn't show that reality itself requires a mind. On that point you are merely begging the question. You can't explain why you think reality requires a mind - at least not without conflating knowledge and existence. All you ever do is assert it.

No you haven't. And you are still conflating your unbelief and ambiguity. As if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known is in and with a believing mind, then there is NO other way or place that the truth and reality can be known to exist outside of a believing mind. And your inability to name one other thing that possesses the capacities of a believing mind that can host the truth and reality is the cherry on the top of your failure.

You don't know physics better than physicists, and you should stop pretending that you do.

If physics has anything to do with the truth and reality, then you get a F for failure, because you have done nothing but try to hide the truth and reality from yourself and others.

That doesn't follow at all. MIPUST requires a mind to be known, but it does not require a mind in order to exist.
Yes, and...? Did you understand a single word you were responding to when making this post?

I understand that what you are saying is illogical nonsense.

If believing minds are the ONLY thing that know they exist and are conscious of that existence, then existence and consciousness must be the product of a believing mind. QED
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Is your "MIPUST" mind-independent or not? If you disbelieve in belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to you, then this unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknown to you.
Yes, MIPUST is mind-independent. But no, I have never claimed that knowledge is possible without a mind. You were wrong about that.

No you haven't. And you are still conflating your unbelief and ambiguity. As if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known is in and with a believing mind, then there is NO other way or place that the truth and reality can be known to exist outside of a believing mind. And your inability to name one other thing that possesses the capacities of a believing mind that can host the truth and reality is the cherry on the top of your failure.
You're not addressing my point. I agree that knowledge of reality requires a mind. Can you give any reason at all for thinking that reality itself also requires a mind?

If physics has anything to do with the truth and reality, then you get a F for failure, because you have done nothing but try to hide the truth and reality from yourself and others.
You're not qualified to hand out grades. And you really need to stop pretending to know physics better than actual physicists.

I understand that what you are saying is illogical nonsense.
Unfortunately you haven't been able to show this.

If believing minds are the ONLY thing that know they exist and are conscious of that existence, then existence and consciousness must be the product of a believing mind. QED
You have misused the term "QED". It is supposed to be used after a logical demonstration, not an unsupported non sequitur.
 

e v e

Super Member
okay. I found my files.

there will be a couple of posts, as a lead up to the experiment. thank you for keeping an open mind..
and do the experiment.
 
Top