The KJV is a "Model T" version...

Shoonra

Member
It's quite right that the original Biblical languages had nuances that translators try to convey - to the loss of some of the original meanings. The Italians, whose literature has been much translated, have a saying, "Translators are traitors". It is just an unfortunate fact of translating ancient (and sometimes obscure) language. I daresay some modern folk who endeavor to learn Biblical languages sometimes miss some of the possible nuances. If I could find a Bible version that actually conveyed all the nuances, I'd urge it on you. But there isn't such a version. However we can do our best to grasp the meanings from perusing multiple versions of Scripture.
 

Woody50

Active member
The Model T was produced from 1909 through 1927. Henry Ford had it made from the best materials available, with the latest engineering designs. His assembly lines became so efficiant that a car could be made from parts every 93 minutes.

During its production run, the Model T was made into dozens of variations. American LaFrance Co. modified some 900 of them into firetrucks. Some of the other variants made were touring cars, racing cars, various kinds of trucks, "sportabouts", & luxury cars. Over time, innovations such as electric starters, electric windshield wipers, better headlights & brake lights, etc. were added.

The Model T was the original SUV, being able to negotiate many wagon paths & rough, unpaved roads, & to cross many creek beds. However, this car still rode roughly over smooth surfaces. But this car remained easy for most owners to keep in repair.

However, tech for cars was increasing, & other cars were offering more features than the Model T, & also, modern paved roads were being laid, enabling cars to go faster more-smoothly. So, Ford replaqced the Model T with the Model A, suited for modern roads. But to this day, the Model T remains the 8th best-selling car model of all time, with over 16 million units made.

The KJV is a "Model T" Bible version. It was the best English version of its day, offering such features as easily-read marginal notes, the Apocrypha, an "Easter-Finder", & an outstanding preface. In time, it replaces virtually every other English version in common use. And the British govt. which held sway over most of the English-using world, outlawed the printing or sale of any other English version.

But the English language changed over time, especially in countries outside of Britain, & the language style of the KJV fell increasingly out of use. Also, many more Scriptural mss.had been discovered, bringing the wording of some verses into question, as well as better translation tools being used, which showed some goofs & booboos in the KJV. Thus, modern English Bible versions began to be made, which are in modern language, & correct many of the KJV's errors.

Now, the KJV remains a viable Bible version, same as the Model T remains a car. However, same as the Model T, the KJV is behind times when compared to modern versions.

God has caused His word to be translated into OUR language, & there's no valid reason not to read it & preach it in our own language. We don't drive Model Ts every day, so there's no reason to use only a "Model T" Bible version!
Jesus saved me through the KJV in 1975. The Word is His Word. He saved me with the KJV.

I think there are other versions that are easier to read, better attuned to the original text...but it's GOD's WORD. Sheesh. I feel like spouting the words of the Frenchman on the wall in Holy Grail.

The "Model T" was sufficient to save me. Upgrades? Downgrades? Our God. Our King. Our Jesus. Our Word. That HE gave us.

Let's just thank Him for saving us...as HE is the one who confused our languages in the first place. Think HE can't understand how to communicate the Gospel?
 

robycop3

Active member
Jesus saved me through the KJV in 1975. The Word is His Word. He saved me with the KJV.

I think there are other versions that are easier to read, better attuned to the original text...but it's GOD's WORD. Sheesh. I feel like spouting the words of the Frenchman on the wall in Holy Grail.

The "Model T" was sufficient to save me. Upgrades? Downgrades? Our God. Our King. Our Jesus. Our Word. That HE gave us.

Let's just thank Him for saving us...as HE is the one who confused our languages in the first place. Think HE can't understand how to communicate the Gospel?
There are some who still drive Model T's But it costs a pretty penny to get parts for one. Every refill of gasoline requires an uncheap additive. It seemingly has crowbars for shox. A 20-mile trip on an Interstate leaves one exhausted. The Model T was made for the conditions & roads of 1909.

Thus, the KJV was made for the British of 1611. Much has changed since then. God has caused/allowed all those changes. And He has kept His word available in the current languages, including English.

If you can stand & afford to drive a Model T all the time, more power to you. Same with only using the KJV; it's still an excellent version, despite some goofs & booboos. Just don't complain if someone says to you, "Please translate; I don't speak Greek".
 

robycop3

Active member
It's quite right that the original Biblical languages had nuances that translators try to convey - to the loss of some of the original meanings. The Italians, whose literature has been much translated, have a saying, "Translators are traitors". It is just an unfortunate fact of translating ancient (and sometimes obscure) language. I daresay some modern folk who endeavor to learn Biblical languages sometimes miss some of the possible nuances. If I could find a Bible version that actually conveyed all the nuances, I'd urge it on you. But there isn't such a version. However we can do our best to grasp the meanings from perusing multiple versions of Scripture.
Yes. the difference in languages isn't lost on GOD, who created'em all. English has far-more words than ancient hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine greek, not counting newer scientific terms & words for things that didn't exist in ancient times, such as flashlights. The translator making an English version has a lotta choices to make from the multiple meanings of words in ancient languages, & several of them may be correct for a particular usage. Thus, reading several bible translations gives one a better overview of Scripture.
 

Woody50

Active member
There are some who still drive Model T's But it costs a pretty penny to get parts for one. Every refill of gasoline requires an uncheap additive. It seemingly has crowbars for shox. A 20-mile trip on an Interstate leaves one exhausted. The Model T was made for the conditions & roads of 1909.

Thus, the KJV was made for the British of 1611. Much has changed since then. God has caused/allowed all those changes. And He has kept His word available in the current languages, including English.

If you can stand & afford to drive a Model T all the time, more power to you. Same with only using the KJV; it's still an excellent version, despite some goofs & booboos. Just don't complain if someone says to you, "Please translate; I don't speak Greek".
Thank you for making my point far better than I could have.

I prefer the ESV now, with all of its flaws.
 

robycop3

Active member
There were many led to Jesus thru the words of the Gospel as found in the KJV. Likewise, there was more than one trip made from Miami, Fl to the tip of northwest Alaska in a Model T. But that trip is a lot easier in a 2021 car, & God's word is easier to read & understand in a modern-language Bible translation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
<sigh>

Oh brother, here we go again...

Do you guys all go to the same church

Probably not. CARM draws people from all over the world, but most people worship at a local church. Do you even think before you ask stupid questions?

and do you all agree on major doctrinal issues that will determine if you go to heaven or hell when you die.

Again, this is an open forum, so there is no guarantee that everyone posting here is even "Christian". But since the issue is the KJV vs. modern translations, no major salvific doctrine is dependent on any textual variant, or any particular translation.

So your question is really a red-herring.

If your answer is no, my next question is "does it matter?" Next, what advantage is it that you all have brand new bible translations and it has caused you to agree on nothing, not even which new bible translation is best.

Well, the question of "which translation is best" is not only NOT the topic here, but it is a subjective evaluation, not an objective one. There is no objective set of universal criteria that I'm aware of which determines an objectively "best" translation.

For me, the "best" translation to use would be:
- one based on the critical text, not the TR;
- one translated by committee, not by individual translators;
- one done fairly recently (the past few decades);

Having said that, the doctrines that I and those that I worship with are supported by the Bible, regardless of whether you use the KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, NET, HCSB or other translation. And I have brothers in Christ who use different translations that I do, and it doesn't concern me at all.

With every new bible version it just gives you another reason to divide and argue.

If you think someone using a different translation is a "reason to divide", then that can only mean that you are a very immature Christian.

The issue here is not simply that someone uses the KJV, while someone else uses the NASB. The issue is for those people who (1) use the KJV, (2) say the KJV is the ONLY valid translation to use, and (3) condemn anyone who doesn't use the KJV.

How many people do you know that have changed their minds on a major doctrinal issue because they graduated from a KJV to a new and easier to read bible version?

They would have no reason to.

But again, you demonstrate that you are a very immature Christian.
Mature Christians don't stop learning after learning the "major doctrinal issues".
They desire to study and strive to learn EVERYTHING that the Bible teaches.
And the best knowledge comes from a more pure translation.

How many have reported to you that, wow, I didn't get it til I read this NIV?

Nice red herring.
You're missing the point (as usual).

It is silly to spend your life and energy here unless someone is trying to compel you to be KJV only and I doubt that is happening to you. I post over on the Calvinist forum and most of those guys over there have a philosophy and many rarely quote any bible with regard to context.

Bearing false witness is a sin, JDS.
We quote Bible ALL DAY LONG.

So, what does it matter what bible they ignore context in? I doubt a lot of them and probably people posting on this forum have never even read the whole bible.

And you would certainly be wrong.
For instance,I've read through the entire Bible MANY times.

A sure sign of misplaced seniority is to assume every form of ignorance on your opponents. While I disagree with Arminians and Pelagians on the A&C forum, I would never assume they haven't read the Bible. In my opinion, those who post in religious forums have a desires for the Bible far more than your C&E nominal "Christian".
 

JDS

Active member
<sigh>

Oh brother, here we go again...



Probably not. CARM draws people from all over the world, but most people worship at a local church. Do you even think before you ask stupid questions?



Again, this is an open forum, so there is no guarantee that everyone posting here is even "Christian". But since the issue is the KJV vs. modern translations, no major salvific doctrine is dependent on any textual variant, or any particular translation.

So your question is really a red-herring.



Well, the question of "which translation is best" is not only NOT the topic here, but it is a subjective evaluation, not an objective one. There is no objective set of universal criteria that I'm aware of which determines an objectively "best" translation.

For me, the "best" translation to use would be:
- one based on the critical text, not the TR;
- one translated by committee, not by individual translators;
- one done fairly recently (the past few decades);

Having said that, the doctrines that I and those that I worship with are supported by the Bible, regardless of whether you use the KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, NET, HCSB or other translation. And I have brothers in Christ who use different translations that I do, and it doesn't concern me at all.



If you think someone using a different translation is a "reason to divide", then that can only mean that you are a very immature Christian.

The issue here is not simply that someone uses the KJV, while someone else uses the NASB. The issue is for those people who (1) use the KJV, (2) say the KJV is the ONLY valid translation to use, and (3) condemn anyone who doesn't use the KJV.



They would have no reason to.

But again, you demonstrate that you are a very immature Christian.
Mature Christians don't stop learning after learning the "major doctrinal issues".
They desire to study and strive to learn EVERYTHING that the Bible teaches.
And the best knowledge comes from a more pure translation.



Nice red herring.
You're missing the point (as usual).



Bearing false witness is a sin, JDS.
We quote Bible ALL DAY LONG.



And you would certainly be wrong.
For instance,I've read through the entire Bible MANY times.

A sure sign of misplaced seniority is to assume every form of ignorance on your opponents. While I disagree with Arminians and Pelagians on the A&C forum, I would never assume they haven't read the Bible. In my opinion, those who post in religious forums have a desires for the Bible far more than your C&E nominal "Christian".
Why are you harassing me?
 

Leatherneck0311

New Member
The Model T was produced from 1909 through 1927. Henry Ford had it made from the best materials available, with the latest engineering designs. His assembly lines became so efficiant that a car could be made from parts every 93 minutes.

During its production run, the Model T was made into dozens of variations. American LaFrance Co. modified some 900 of them into firetrucks. Some of the other variants made were touring cars, racing cars, various kinds of trucks, "sportabouts", & luxury cars. Over time, innovations such as electric starters, electric windshield wipers, better headlights & brake lights, etc. were added.

The Model T was the original SUV, being able to negotiate many wagon paths & rough, unpaved roads, & to cross many creek beds. However, this car still rode roughly over smooth surfaces. But this car remained easy for most owners to keep in repair.

However, tech for cars was increasing, & other cars were offering more features than the Model T, & also, modern paved roads were being laid, enabling cars to go faster more-smoothly. So, Ford replaqced the Model T with the Model A, suited for modern roads. But to this day, the Model T remains the 8th best-selling car model of all time, with over 16 million units made.

The KJV is a "Model T" Bible version. It was the best English version of its day, offering such features as easily-read marginal notes, the Apocrypha, an "Easter-Finder", & an outstanding preface. In time, it replaces virtually every other English version in common use. And the British govt. which held sway over most of the English-using world, outlawed the printing or sale of any other English version.

But the English language changed over time, especially in countries outside of Britain, & the language style of the KJV fell increasingly out of use. Also, many more Scriptural mss.had been discovered, bringing the wording of some verses into question, as well as better translation tools being used, which showed some goofs & booboos in the KJV. Thus, modern English Bible versions began to be made, which are in modern language, & correct many of the KJV's errors.

Now, the KJV remains a viable Bible version, same as the Model T remains a car. However, same as the Model T, the KJV is behind times when compared to modern versions.

God has caused His word to be translated into OUR language, & there's no valid reason not to read it & preach it in our own language. We don't drive Model Ts every day, so there's no reason to use only a "Model T" Bible version!
The only credit and acknowledgment you leave out is God. Hebert Ford was not God.
 

Shoonra

Member
WE are getting stuck on a metaphor. The model T was supreme in its day, and some are still in operation, etc., but there have been many improved versions of automobiles since Ford produced the Model T. Ditto with the KJV.
 

Woody50

Active member
WE are getting stuck on a metaphor. The model T was supreme in its day, and some are still in operation, etc., but there have been many improved versions of automobiles since Ford produced the Model T. Ditto with the KJV.
Way to bring it home, Shoonra.

So, in your experience and study, would you say that ALL versions are an improvement? If not, which ones should people avoid...and why?
 

Shoonra

Member
would you say that ALL versions are an improvement? If not, which ones should people avoid...and why?

I haven't examined ALL new versions. If I had any opinions about versions to avoid they would include Panin, which was influenced by numerology, and Lamsa, which pretended to be a translation of the Peshitta but actually was of a 19th century missionary version based on the Greek TR.
 

Woody50

Active member
I haven't examined ALL new versions. If I had any opinions about versions to avoid they would include Panin, which was influenced by numerology, and Lamsa, which pretended to be a translation of the Peshitta but actually was of a 19th century missionary version based on the Greek TR.
I'd avoid persnickety and nitpicky. Bad versions, those.
 
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