The Last Days

What are the last days according to scripture, specifically with relationship to Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment?

In Truth and Love.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
My view is the the Last Days started in the book of Acts and ended when Jerusalem was destroyed...

Acts 2:17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

James 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

I can't see the last days lasting 2,000 years.
 
My view is the the Last Days started in the book of Acts and ended when Jerusalem was destroyed...

Acts 2:17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

James 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

I can't see the last days lasting 2,000 years.
Okay, so first off LOVE your avatar and your user name!

Second, that makes a lot of sense. Do you believe there are any prophecies of the OT or NT left to be fulfilled?
 

Buzzard

Active member
Ps.102:18
This shall be written for the generation to come:
and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.

19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary;
from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner;
to loose those that are appointed to death;

Proverbs 30:11
There is a generation
that curseth their father,
and doth not bless their mother.

12 There is a generation
that are pure in their own eyes,
and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

13 There is a generation,
O how lofty are their eyes!
and their eyelids are lifted up.

14 There is a generation,
whose teeth are as swords,
and their jaw teeth as knives,
to devour the poor from off the earth,
and the needy from among men.

Paul says.
all things written aforetime are for
the Generation that shall see all the things spoken of come to pass
"Eyes too see; Ears too Hear"

upon whom the ends of the world come

"when you hear of the things written
Look up for your redemption draweth nigh
"
 

robycop3

Active member
Partial preterism, as well as full preterism, is phony as a Ford Corvette.

Remember, Jesus said He'd return immediately after the great trib ended.

So, if the great trib occurred 66-70 AD, then Jesus is long-overdue !

However, ACTUALLY, the events of 66-70 AD was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews, while the actual great trib will be WORLDWIDE; some of its events are seen in Rev. 16. Nothing like those events has ever occurred worldwide.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Partial preterism, as well as full preterism, is phony as a Ford Corvette.

Remember, Jesus said He'd return immediately after the great trib ended.

So, if the great trib occurred 66-70 AD, then Jesus is long-overdue !

However, ACTUALLY, the events of 66-70 AD was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews, while the actual great trib will be WORLDWIDE; some of its events are seen in Rev. 16. Nothing like those events has ever occurred worldwide.
Please supply a scripture and give an exegesis of it along with your presuppositions... I think I may be able to give a reasonable answer...
 

robycop3

Active member
Please supply a scripture and give an exegesis of it along with your presuppositions... I think I may be able to give a reasonable answer...
Sure!
Matt. 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus said, in so many words, that this coming trib will be the worst set of disasters in history, which will kill all flesh (man & animal alike) if not shortened. And Jesus PLAINLY said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days are ended. There'll be no mistaking His return for anything else. And in the Revelation, he said EVERY EYE will see Him, even those who pierced Him. While those who pierced Him are long-dead, they'll see Him from hades, as will all the righteousin the paradise area of hades.

Matt. 23: 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

This is the prophecy of the "days of vengeance" that came upon that generation of Jews in 66-70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple. That event, of course, was NOT the great trib, which will be worldwide & far-worse !

Luke 21: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jesus meant "all things that were written against the Jews UP TO THAT TIME. The Revelation hadn't yet been given, so it certainly wasn't then fulfilled!

Vespasian first laid siege to Jerusalem C. 66AD, but he was called back to Rome with his armies to be made Caesar. But the Zealots' revolt continued. 8 months after he left, Vespasian sent his som Titus with a large army to take Jerusalem, which he did in 70 AD.(Soon as vespasian left, many Christians in Jerusalem fled at once to Pella, lest they be killed by the Zealots.) This ended the time of the Pharisees & evil religious leadership of the Jews, accomplishing Jesus. prophecy of Matt. 23 against the Jews of that time, especially against the Pharisees.

Bad as this was for the Jews, it was mainly against those in jerusalem & its immediate surroundings. A much-worse disaster fell upon ALL the Jews in the Roman empire in 135-136 AD when Caesar Hadrian booted them entirely outta their land, & outta Rome & most of the large cities of the empire, killing a great many in the process. This, the punishment for rejecting & killing Jesus, culminated in the holocaust, & began to end when the nazis fell. While God ended that punishment, each individual Jew is obligated to come to Jesus for salvation, same as anyone else.

But the great trib & return of Jesus are plainly future events.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Sure!
Matt. 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus said, in so many words, that this coming trib will be the worst set of disasters in history, which will kill all flesh (man & animal alike) if not shortened. And Jesus PLAINLY said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days are ended. There'll be no mistaking His return for anything else. And in the Revelation, he said EVERY EYE will see Him, even those who pierced Him. While those who pierced Him are long-dead, they'll see Him from hades, as will all the righteousin the paradise area of hades.

Matt. 23: 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

This is the prophecy of the "days of vengeance" that came upon that generation of Jews in 66-70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple. That event, of course, was NOT the great trib, which will be worldwide & far-worse !

Luke 21: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jesus meant "all things that were written against the Jews UP TO THAT TIME. The Revelation hadn't yet been given, so it certainly wasn't then fulfilled!

Vespasian first laid siege to Jerusalem C. 66AD, but he was called back to Rome with his armies to be made Caesar. But the Zealots' revolt continued. 8 months after he left, Vespasian sent his som Titus with a large army to take Jerusalem, which he did in 70 AD.(Soon as vespasian left, many Christians in Jerusalem fled at once to Pella, lest they be killed by the Zealots.) This ended the time of the Pharisees & evil religious leadership of the Jews, accomplishing Jesus. prophecy of Matt. 23 against the Jews of that time, especially against the Pharisees.

Bad as this was for the Jews, it was mainly against those in jerusalem & its immediate surroundings. A much-worse disaster fell upon ALL the Jews in the Roman empire in 135-136 AD when Caesar Hadrian booted them entirely outta their land, & outta Rome & most of the large cities of the empire, killing a great many in the process. This, the punishment for rejecting & killing Jesus, culminated in the holocaust, & began to end when the nazis fell. While God ended that punishment, each individual Jew is obligated to come to Jesus for salvation, same as anyone else.

But the great trib & return of Jesus are plainly future events.
I want to respond to you in parts. So let's start with Matthew 24. We have to start with Matthew 23:36 and 24:34.

36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

These two passages are bookends to Olivet Discourse. Here is what we know. Everything in between these two verses are to happen before the generation who Jesus is speaking to dies.

We know that the Jews see time in two parts, before Messiah and after Messiah. Matthew, being a Jew, knows this as he is authoring this book.

The disciples asked, "When will these things be (destruction of the temple) and What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" I think sign is a key word. They aren't asking when Jesus is to return physically. If that were the case, they wouldn't need a sign. They would just see him.

We know that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, seen by "this" generation Jesus was speaking to. The end of the age isn't speaking of the end of the world (kosmos), but instead, the end of age (aion). They are asking when will time run out for the Temple, Jerusalem, and the covenant promises related to the Mosaic system of animal sacrifices, ceremonial washings, and the priesthood. How does this relate to the coming of Christ? The coming is an event in Heaven. It is the completion of the transition from the old to the new covenant.

We know that from the ascension of Christ to 70 AD, the young and small Church was under immense persecution. This is the tribulation in which Jesus spoke of. The elect were the Christians of the day, where a majority were of Jewish lineage. If the days had not been cut short, the Church could have been wiped out.

As far as people see Jesus' coming, we first have to realize that he is speaking of the tribes in Israel. Let's look to Revelation that was written in the mid 60's,

(Look! He is returning with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even
those who pierced him,
and all the tribes on the earth will mourn because of him.
This will certainly come to pass! Amen.)

Clouds are used throughout the Old Testament to represent judgement. Those who pierced Christ were to see their judgement and the tribes of Israel who had rejected Messiah were going to mourn... You can't get around this verse is speaking of those who pierced Christ in 33AD were to see their judgement...
 

robycop3

Active member
I want to respond to you in parts. So let's start with Matthew 24. We have to start with Matthew 23:36 and 24:34.

36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

These two passages are bookends to Olivet Discourse. Here is what we know. Everything in between these two verses are to happen before the generation who Jesus is speaking to dies.

We know that the Jews see time in two parts, before Messiah and after Messiah. Matthew, being a Jew, knows this as he is authoring this book.

The disciples asked, "When will these things be (destruction of the temple) and What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" I think sign is a key word. They aren't asking when Jesus is to return physically. If that were the case, they wouldn't need a sign. They would just see him.

We know that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, seen by "this" generation Jesus was speaking to. The end of the age isn't speaking of the end of the world (kosmos), but instead, the end of age (aion). They are asking when will time run out for the Temple, Jerusalem, and the covenant promises related to the Mosaic system of animal sacrifices, ceremonial washings, and the priesthood. How does this relate to the coming of Christ? The coming is an event in Heaven. It is the completion of the transition from the old to the new covenant.

We know that from the ascension of Christ to 70 AD, the young and small Church was under immense persecution. This is the tribulation in which Jesus spoke of. The elect were the Christians of the day, where a majority were of Jewish lineage. If the days had not been cut short, the Church could have been wiped out.

As far as people see Jesus' coming, we first have to realize that he is speaking of the tribes in Israel. Let's look to Revelation that was written in the mid 60's,

(Look! He is returning with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even
those who pierced him,
and all the tribes on the earth will mourn because of him.
This will certainly come to pass! Amen.)

Clouds are used throughout the Old Testament to represent judgement. Those who pierced Christ were to see their judgement and the tribes of Israel who had rejected Messiah were going to mourn... You can't get around this verse is speaking of those who pierced Christ in 33AD were to see their judgement...
Nice try, but the events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. The "days of vengeance" were prophesied against THAT generation, but the generation that shall see all those things might not even be born yet. They certainly haven't happened yet!

Prets keep inventing new excuses or half-baked "explanations" of why they believe the events have already occurred, but all are false. Scripture is very plain about what will occur.
 
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Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Nice try, but the events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. The "days of vengeance" were prophesied against THAT generation, but the generation that shall see all those things might not even be born yet. They certainly haven't happened yet!

Prets keep inventing new excuses or half-baked "explanations" of why they believe the events have already occurred, but all are false. Scripture is very plain about what will occur.
Let the record show robycop3 deflected rather than engaged...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Luke 21: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jesus meant "all things that were written against the Jews UP TO THAT TIME. The Revelation hadn't yet been given, so it certainly wasn't then fulfilled!

Vespasian first laid siege to Jerusalem C. 66AD, but he was called back to Rome with his armies to be made Caesar. But the Zealots' revolt continued. 8 months after he left, Vespasian sent his som Titus with a large army to take Jerusalem, which he did in 70 AD.(Soon as vespasian left, many Christians in Jerusalem fled at once to Pella, lest they be killed by the Zealots.) This ended the time of the Pharisees & evil religious leadership of the Jews, accomplishing Jesus. prophecy of Matt. 23 against the Jews of that time, especially against the Pharisees.

Bad as this was for the Jews, it was mainly against those in jerusalem & its immediate surroundings. A much-worse disaster fell upon ALL the Jews in the Roman empire in 135-136 AD when Caesar Hadrian booted them entirely outta their land, & outta Rome & most of the large cities of the empire, killing a great many in the process. This, the punishment for rejecting & killing Jesus, culminated in the holocaust, & began to end when the nazis fell. While God ended that punishment, each individual Jew is obligated to come to Jesus for salvation, same as anyone else.

But the great trib & return of Jesus are plainly future events.
The Days of Vengeance is just one name for the judgement of Israel. I think I made my point previously... Looks like Partial Preterism is a 4-Wheel Drive Monster Truck...
 

robycop3

Active member
The Days of Vengeance is just one name for the judgement of Israel. I think I made my point previously... Looks like Partial Preterism is a 4-Wheel Drive Monster Truck...
No, it was a judgment Jesus pronounced against that generation of Jews. Few, if any, other Israelis were involved. Your monster truck flipped on its top at the first hoop-de-doo.
 
I want to respond to you in parts. So let's start with Matthew 24. We have to start with Matthew 23:36 and 24:34.

36 I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things!
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

These two passages are bookends to Olivet Discourse. Here is what we know. Everything in between these two verses are to happen before the generation who Jesus is speaking to dies.
Does this mean that you believe everything after vs. 34 does not refer to the Jewish Wars of AD 66-74 and the events leading up to it?
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
We know that from the ascension of Christ to 70 AD, the young and small Church was under immense persecution. This is the tribulation in which Jesus spoke of. The elect were the Christians of the day, where a majority were of Jewish lineage. If the days had not been cut short, the Church could have been wiped out.

Ok... Let's start with proof of tribulation...Acts records many attacks on Christians - Acts 4:3 Jailed, 5:40 flogged, 7:54-60 (murdered), 8:1 (persecution), 9:1 (threats of murder), 12:1-3 (mistreated, put to death, arrested), 14:19 (stoning), 18-24-25 (brought before rulers), and Nero. Tertullian said, "There was war against the very name" of Christ. John said he was a fellow par-taker in the tribulation. Again, is the Bible not enough proof?
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Sure!
Matt. 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus said, in so many words, that this coming trib will be the worst set of disasters in history, which will kill all flesh (man & animal alike) if not shortened. And Jesus PLAINLY said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days are ended. There'll be no mistaking His return for anything else. And in the Revelation, he said EVERY EYE will see Him, even those who pierced Him. While those who pierced Him are long-dead, they'll see Him from hades, as will all the righteousin the paradise area of hades.
If the sun were darkened, the world would freeze immediately. If stars fell from the sky to earth, the world would be destroyed by incineration. Who are the elect? All believers were already raptured, right? How do the dead, already in torment, see the physical return of Christ?

This is sounding like a fantastic sci-fi movie... I saw a couple of Star Wars movies that sound a little like your interpretation... BTW, do you have some tangible proof?
 

robycop3

Active member
If the sun were darkened, the world would freeze immediately. If stars fell from the sky to earth, the world would be destroyed by incineration. Who are the elect? All believers were already raptured, right? How do the dead, already in torment, see the physical return of Christ?

This is sounding like a fantastic sci-fi movie... I saw a couple of Star Wars movies that sound a little like your interpretation... BTW, do you have some tangible proof?
So you deny JESUS' words? You call yourself a CHRISTIAN while denying your Savior's words ?????????

In those days, everyone called METEORS "falling stars". Sure, Jesus knew what they are, but He used a description everyone knew.

And the sun can be darkened to our view by many things, such as smoke or dust. Quit ascing so dense! You know better & so do I!

Still, NO PROOF !!!!!!!!!
 
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