Yodas_Prodigy
Active member
LOL's... The Senator at work... I deny your interpretation, not Jesus' words... 1/3 of all the meteors would incinerate the planet...
The Last Days
- Thread starter Kade Rystalmane
- Start date
LOL's... The Senator at work... I deny your interpretation, not Jesus' words... 1/3 of all the meteors would incinerate the planet...
robycop3
Active member
You're being purposely dense again. That's just plain silly. You're not dealing with a toddler.
Yodas_Prodigy
Active member
The atmosphere will not stop 1/3 of all meteors... Not all meteors are small...
robycop3
Active member
Still being dense. Nowhere does Scripture say meteors will destroy the earth. In fact, one of the trib's later plagues will be falling rox. (When I was a child, I saw one hit the ground in a field a few miles from Cincinnati. It made a blast a little bigger than that of a hand grenade. Next day, some UP people recovered a remnant about the size of a baseball, about a yard deep. I was about 120 yds. away when it hit.)
Kade Rystalmane
Member
Roby, I believe that it is necessary to let scripture interpret scripture rather than us just make up whatever based on our own personal experience. I would not want to set myself up as the standard by which scripture is judged. I'm hopefully not that arrogant. I hope you would agree.
Having said that, can you provide scripture to support your interpretation of these images of the Sun, moon, and stars that have been...discussed so far? Thank you.
robycop3
Active member
Why, it's simple-THOSE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES!
Jesus used the same terminology that other men of that time woulda used to describe those events, so there'd be no misunderstanding of those events, then or now, except those that stupporn or ignorant people would make outtsa them.
The sun's light was partially blocked in areas by the smoke from the disastrous fires in the western US & those earlier in Australia; the moon often appeared blood-red. Common sense says the light from the sin or moon themselves wasn't actually diminished, nor did the moon actually turn into blood.
So, to let Scripture interpret themselves, one must use COMMON SENSE.
Kade Rystalmane
Member
I agree that we should understand those terms the way the people of that time would have understood them. But there are a few issues with that for you.
1. The people of that day were Jewish that Jesus was speaking to in those terms and that later Peter was speaking to on Pentecost in Acts 2.
2. Both Jesus and Peter (and other writers using these terms in that time) referred heavily to Old Testament scripture to support what they were saying.
3. This means that the Jews would have understood those terms based on how the Old Testament used them.
For example, Peter says in Acts 2 that what was going on was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2) and then he goes on to talk about the sun, moon, and stars. Joel draws heavily on Moses and other earlier writings when discussing these terms. For instance, when we talk about what Moses wrote, we see Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and 11 stars bowing down to his star. Jacob immediately understands this dream to refer to himself as the sun (the greatest authority in Joseph's life in this context), the moon (Leah, his only living mother), and stars (the eleven brothers who become the patriarchs of eleven Jewish tribes). In Isaiah 1:2, 10 we see the terms heavens and earth associated with rulers and people. In fact, looking throughout the Old Testament, especially in books of prophecy, we see that the Jews understood the Sun to refer to the king, the Moon to refer to a second highest authority, particularly the high priest, and the stars referred to lesser leaders (elders, captains, and even the Sanhedrin Council).
Thus, when stars fall from heaven, it is a reference to lesser leaders falling from power. When the sun is darkened, a king or dynasty is being deposed. When the moon turns to blood, we are seeing the death of the high priest in apocalyptic terms. This is how the Jews would understand these terms and how we should understand them as well.
I assert that you are not interpreting these terms the way the first century Jews would interpret them, but rather are interpreting them the way you understand them from a 21st century perspective. Look to the Old Testament and let the Bible interpret itself.
In Truth and Love.
robycop3
Active member
First, not all the 11 tribes were Jewish. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi became Jewish. The rest were simply Israelis. Remember, all Jews are Israelis, but not all Israelis are Jews.
Next, mosta the Jews of that time spoke/read Koine Greek, & Jesus likely spoke to them in Greek or Aramaic, the lingua franca of that day.
Next, Jesus' prophecies then were pretty literal, but in the same common terminology that everyone else used. I believe Jesus & Joel were referring to the effects of the great quakes & fires that'll be part of the trib. I believe volcanism will be part of the trib. (the agent God will employ to cause the trib shall be discussed elsewhere.)
And, of course, Jesus spoke in terms WE would understand as well, as He knew the prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled in that timeframe. Biblical prophecy must be 'taken' literally as possible, with the actual meaning of metaphors applied.
Next, mosta the Jews of that time spoke/read Koine Greek, & Jesus likely spoke to them in Greek or Aramaic, the lingua franca of that day.
Next, Jesus' prophecies then were pretty literal, but in the same common terminology that everyone else used. I believe Jesus & Joel were referring to the effects of the great quakes & fires that'll be part of the trib. I believe volcanism will be part of the trib. (the agent God will employ to cause the trib shall be discussed elsewhere.)
And, of course, Jesus spoke in terms WE would understand as well, as He knew the prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled in that timeframe. Biblical prophecy must be 'taken' literally as possible, with the actual meaning of metaphors applied.
Kade Rystalmane
Member
Yes, of course. This is entirely beside the point.
Yes, but they still had knowledge of the scriptures and understood the idioms. Also entirely beside the point.
You believe this, but you have to show that it is true from scripture, not just assert it.
Agreed. Which is part of why Paul said in Romans 15:4 that the things which were written aforetime (OT) were written for our learning. We understand them by understanding the OT the way the Jews would have understood it.
This is your assertion, but you have to prove it from the scriptures.
All scripture should be taken literally until there is a contextual reason not to. When we look at the OT prophets, we see that their visions contained symbols, fantastical beasts and such, and should not be taken literally. This is called apocalyptic language. Thus, when we come to the same terms in the NT, we know the language as the Jews did and apply the terms symbolically as they would.
robycop3
Active member
Simple fact-The prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred.
Jesus wasn't just prophesying for the Jews. When he said the sun shall be dimmed, that's what He meant.
Revelation prophesies several great series of earthquakes, & these will doubtlessly cause a great deal of dust & smoke. Meteors striking the ground will raise more.
The Scriptures are what they are, & history shows the fulfillment of prophecy, or that it's not yet fulfilled. Prets try to shoehorn all sorts of past events into their versions of prophecy fulfillments, along with stuff they've invented. it just won't work.
Now, the earth has only one sun & one moon, & there's no mistaking anything else for either one. Again, when Jesus said their light would be dimmed, far as earthly observers saw, that's what He meant.
Proof that the prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled is found in any good history book covering the last 2K years. One MUST consider secular history while analyzing prophecy.
Jesus said Jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed, & they were He said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another. One can see its ruins today to know that occurred exactly as written. (The Wailing Wall is NOT part of the temple bldg.)He said then J was surrounded by armies, its destruction was near, & His people had best flee from it ASAP. When Vespasian withdrew the Roman armies for 8 months, many Christians fled to Pella because they believed Jesus & wished to escape the Zealots, whom they knew wouldn't pursue them. And when the Romans returned, they didn't attack Pella. so we see Jesus' prophecy was quite-literal !
So, there's no actual reason to believe that when Jesus said sun & moon, He meant anything else !
Kade Rystalmane
Member
I believe they have. All of them save for the final Resurrection and Judgment such as recorded in 1 Cor. 15 and Acts 24:15.
I believe He was prophesying against the Jews and to comfort the Christians of the first century. But those symbols were used within the context of that generation not passing until all those things being fulfilled. Peter said in Acts 2 that they were being fulfilled before the eyes of his audience. He literally said, "this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel, and it shall come to pass in the last days...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood," (Acts 2:16-17, 20). "This is that" means Peter was telling them they were seeing the fulfillment of these things at that time....2000 years ago.
Revelation is a book of symbols. It literally tells you this in the first verse. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" (Rev. 1:1). The Greek word ἐσήμανεν (semaino) literally translates to "to give a sign". What John sees in his vision is signs, symbols, figurative language drawn from apocalyptic texts such as Daniel. There isn't literally a seven headed dragon, or a seven headed sea beast or a goat-like land beast. There isn't a giant woman in space or another giant prostitute riding on the sea beast. These all represent nations in the first century just as they represented nations in Daniel 7.
There is no mention of meteors or any reason to interpret anything as meteors in the book of Revelation. The stars that fall are representative of leaders within the governmental systems of that day. Even the idea of the rivers, seas, islands, lands, trees....these are all representative of people of the land just as these symbols represented the people in the Old Testament books of prophecy. We must use the OT to interpret the symbols of the New rather than set ourselves up as the standard of interpretation. What you are committing here is called eisegesis.
Every event in any apocalyptic text has already been fulfilled. The book of Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, every symbol, every event has already been accomplished. Jesus explicitly stated that it would be fulfilled in that generation (Matt. 24:34). He tells the High Priest and the Sanhedrin Council that some of them would still be alive when they saw Him return with His angels and the kingdom come with power (Mark 8:38-9:1).
You just keep asserting this without any proof. I've shown you from the OT that these celestial bodies can represent other things. Joseph's dream, Isaiah 1:2, 10, and so on. Where is your proof of your assertion?
No. I don't have to consider secular history. You are saying that the Bible is insufficient alone to interpret itself. This is a contradiction of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 which emphatically and explicitly teaches that the Bible is all sufficient. The Bible itself shows that these things would be concluded within that generation. It says so in Acts 2, Matthew 24:34; and many other places throughout the NT. Revelation itself uses phrases such as:
- shortly come to pass
- the time is at hand
- behold I come quickly
Yes, and it happened in that generation.
So when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." in verse 34, did "all these things" include verse 29? is there any actual reason to believe that Jesus meant anything else than "all these things" would be fulfilled in that generation?
In Truth and Love.
robycop3
Active member
No, the events have NOT yet occurred. Someone has filled your head with pret garbage. Their occurrences are not mentioned in any world history worx.What Jesus prophesied against THAT generation of Jews were the "days of vengeance" when everything written against them UP TO THAT TIME was fulfilled. The Olivet Discourse came later.
Acts 2 speax of people prophesying by the power of the Holy Spirit. This still occurs today, altho there are many fakers "prophesying" as well. The "day of the Lord" is the return of Jesus, which obviously hasn't happened yet.
As for Revelation, the Greek word the KJV renders "signified' here is semaino, here in infinitive form, which means MAKE KNOWN. Jesus made the Rev known by His angel. (That's some of why I don't use the KJV; it's full of poor renderings & archaic language.) Sure, SOME of it is obviously symbolic, but those whose meanings were not made known by an angel are easily figured out today.
Jesus mentions meteors in Matt. 24 when He refers to falling stars, by which meteors were commonly called then, & still are by many today. And one of the plagues of the great trib is a hail of rocks from the sky, which is exactly what meteors are. What YOU'RE doing isn't even eisegesis-it's pure GUESSWORK & MAN'S IMAGINATION.
Now, how literal is the Olivet Discourse? it came right on the heels of His saying that not one stone of the temple would remain upon another. That came to pass EXACTLY AS PROPHESIED; the proof is in the remains of the temple today.
The "abomination of desolation" will be when the antichrist enters the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, sets up a statue of himself in it, & declares himself God while he's sitting in it. That certainly didn't happen in the old temple before it was destroyed, but Antiochus Epiphanes committed a "type" of it in 167 BC by setting up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificing a pig on the altar. (But he didn't declare himself to be God, or a god.)
And the generation that sees the beginning of those things will see them all, including Jesus' return.
And Jesus said that even those who pierced Him will see His return. Obviously, He hasn't yet returned, & those who pierced Him are long-dead, so all the souls in hades, both paradise & "torments", will see His return from there. Sound impossible? If man's satellite TV can show the Super Bowl live all over the world, how much more can JESUS do?
Since prets have no proof for their assertions, they take to inventing new meanings for Scriptures, in violation of God's command to not ADD to His word. Their whole premise consists of guesswork & fishing stories. I've heard all the garbage they've taught you years ago, & it was as phony then as it is now.
Acts 2 speax of people prophesying by the power of the Holy Spirit. This still occurs today, altho there are many fakers "prophesying" as well. The "day of the Lord" is the return of Jesus, which obviously hasn't happened yet.
As for Revelation, the Greek word the KJV renders "signified' here is semaino, here in infinitive form, which means MAKE KNOWN. Jesus made the Rev known by His angel. (That's some of why I don't use the KJV; it's full of poor renderings & archaic language.) Sure, SOME of it is obviously symbolic, but those whose meanings were not made known by an angel are easily figured out today.
Jesus mentions meteors in Matt. 24 when He refers to falling stars, by which meteors were commonly called then, & still are by many today. And one of the plagues of the great trib is a hail of rocks from the sky, which is exactly what meteors are. What YOU'RE doing isn't even eisegesis-it's pure GUESSWORK & MAN'S IMAGINATION.
Now, how literal is the Olivet Discourse? it came right on the heels of His saying that not one stone of the temple would remain upon another. That came to pass EXACTLY AS PROPHESIED; the proof is in the remains of the temple today.
The "abomination of desolation" will be when the antichrist enters the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, sets up a statue of himself in it, & declares himself God while he's sitting in it. That certainly didn't happen in the old temple before it was destroyed, but Antiochus Epiphanes committed a "type" of it in 167 BC by setting up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificing a pig on the altar. (But he didn't declare himself to be God, or a god.)
And the generation that sees the beginning of those things will see them all, including Jesus' return.
And Jesus said that even those who pierced Him will see His return. Obviously, He hasn't yet returned, & those who pierced Him are long-dead, so all the souls in hades, both paradise & "torments", will see His return from there. Sound impossible? If man's satellite TV can show the Super Bowl live all over the world, how much more can JESUS do?
Since prets have no proof for their assertions, they take to inventing new meanings for Scriptures, in violation of God's command to not ADD to His word. Their whole premise consists of guesswork & fishing stories. I've heard all the garbage they've taught you years ago, & it was as phony then as it is now.
Kade Rystalmane
Member
Here is an article I wrote concerning the Olivet Discourse. This is my website so you can also find detailed verse by verse analysis of the book of Revelation among many other things. I show that these things were fulfilled already. All of them.
All that is left is the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15 and the Judgement of Acts 24:15.
swordmasterpublications.fandom.com
swordmasterpublications.fandom.com
Additionally, the vehemence in your words, the way you speak to me and others, it's not convincing anyone. Its turning them off from listening to you. I don't know why you feel the need to speak to others that way, but it only reflects poorly on you, not those you disagree with. We will respond better when you can find within you the spiritual fruits of Galatians 5.
In Truth and Love.
All that is left is the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15 and the Judgement of Acts 24:15.
Olivet Discourse
1 Introduction 2 The Question 3 Beaten in the Synagogues 4 Lightning from the East 5 Good News Preached to all the World 6 Order to Flee Jerusalem 7 Jerusalem Compassed with Armies 8 The Sun, Moon, and Stars Fail 9 Sun, Moon, and Stars in Prophecy 9.1 Isaiah's Prophecies Against Nations 9.2 Joel...
swordmasterpublications.fandom.com
Revelation 1
The purpose of this study is not to disprove any specific false doctrines or all of them combined. It is an affirmative case that, if substantiated, automatically negates all those paradigms which conflict with it no matter who teaches it. The attempt is being made herein to use only the Bible...
swordmasterpublications.fandom.com
Additionally, the vehemence in your words, the way you speak to me and others, it's not convincing anyone. Its turning them off from listening to you. I don't know why you feel the need to speak to others that way, but it only reflects poorly on you, not those you disagree with. We will respond better when you can find within you the spiritual fruits of Galatians 5.
In Truth and Love.
robycop3
Active member
First, I'm not trying to "convert" any prets; just simply to prove them wrong. While I was visiting verious libraries gathering facts to prove the KJVO myth false, a friend turned me on to the preterism myth & asked me to prove it wrong as well. IT WASN'T TOO HARD! Comparing pret assertions with Scripture & history, it was easy to see prets had invented new meanings for Scriptures that simply aren't in those Scriptures, trying to make them fit their garbage.
What I'm doing will hopefully keep new, impressionable Christians from believing that pret nonsense.
On your article, there are booboos early on. Jesus was warning His disciples to not believe accounts of a secret return by Him, & so His comparison of His return to lightning pertains to VISIBILITY, as He later said every eye will see His return, even those who pierced Him. (And also, those who put Him in a position to be pierced, including Caiaphas.)
As those dudes are all dead, that must mean they'll see His return from hades, as will those in the 'paradise' area of hades. Obviously, His return hasn't yet happened, as the antichrist hasn't yet come, nor the great trib occurred.
(More in my next post)
What I'm doing will hopefully keep new, impressionable Christians from believing that pret nonsense.
On your article, there are booboos early on. Jesus was warning His disciples to not believe accounts of a secret return by Him, & so His comparison of His return to lightning pertains to VISIBILITY, as He later said every eye will see His return, even those who pierced Him. (And also, those who put Him in a position to be pierced, including Caiaphas.)
As those dudes are all dead, that must mean they'll see His return from hades, as will those in the 'paradise' area of hades. Obviously, His return hasn't yet happened, as the antichrist hasn't yet come, nor the great trib occurred.
(More in my next post)
robycop3
Active member
With all due respect, your article is a repeat of the same old pret garbage I've heard or read over the last 38 years. It's mostly wrong.
Since prets have no facts nor evidence to support their claims, they invent new meanings for some Scriptures to try to make them fit pret assertions. You've posted a lot of that hooey. (I doubt you originated it, as I've seen it for many years, so a pox upon the charlatan who taught it to you!)
In rev, the tribes of the earth are just that! Had God meant just israel, He woulda said so! And the Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews, same as all Ohioans are Americans, but not all Americans are Ohioans.
When Jesus mentioned the sun & moon, He meant JUST THAT-LITERALLY! Their light will be partially blocked off by the dust & smoke from the disasters of the great trib. And falling stars are meteors; they've been called that for millenia.
Jesus said He'd return immediately after the great trib was ended, so if it's already occurred, He's long-overdue.
As I said, Sir, history proves the pret assertions false. Preterism was greatly expanded from a theory invented by some unlearned men to a large false doctrine by the 16th C. Spanish jeezit Alcazar, to keep his pope from being labeled the antichrist. Like the KJVO myth, the pret myth is phony as a Ford Corvette!
Since prets have no facts nor evidence to support their claims, they invent new meanings for some Scriptures to try to make them fit pret assertions. You've posted a lot of that hooey. (I doubt you originated it, as I've seen it for many years, so a pox upon the charlatan who taught it to you!)
In rev, the tribes of the earth are just that! Had God meant just israel, He woulda said so! And the Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews, same as all Ohioans are Americans, but not all Americans are Ohioans.
When Jesus mentioned the sun & moon, He meant JUST THAT-LITERALLY! Their light will be partially blocked off by the dust & smoke from the disasters of the great trib. And falling stars are meteors; they've been called that for millenia.
Jesus said He'd return immediately after the great trib was ended, so if it's already occurred, He's long-overdue.
As I said, Sir, history proves the pret assertions false. Preterism was greatly expanded from a theory invented by some unlearned men to a large false doctrine by the 16th C. Spanish jeezit Alcazar, to keep his pope from being labeled the antichrist. Like the KJVO myth, the pret myth is phony as a Ford Corvette!
Yodas_Prodigy
Active member
LOL's, the Dispensationalist is telling us about phony doctrines... Dispensationalism is about 200 years old. Its whole foundation is based upon the dividing up of God's people, separating OT saints from NT Saints from Tribulation Saints... It is necessary to ignore 1800+ years of Church history and Dogma... It requires multiple returns of Christ. It divides up the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel by >2000 years... I am just getting started... Sir, the Dispensational Fantasy is a cancer on the body of Christ... What is one of their favorite lines, "Why polish the brass on a sinking ship?" How about all of those predictions? - 1988, 1989,1995, 2000, 2010, 2017, and more to come....
Sir, the problems that we have to overcome are an ant hill compared to your school of thought...
Fill in your denial/deflection here >>> _____________________
robycop3
Active member
All those predictions were made by charlatans.
But the FACT is, the eschatological events have NOT yet occurred. You cannot show us one quark differently.
Yodas_Prodigy
Active member
Sure I can... Jerusalem was destroyed and the Church suffered under serious tribulation... We know that Nero fits the Beast of Revelation.
robycop3
Active member
robycop3
Active member
POPPYCOCK!
Nero does NOT fit the beast, except being a very bad dude.
He did not overthrow 3 other rulers to become Caesar; he was elected by the Senate.
He had no miracle-working false prophet as his sidekick.
He worshipped the Roman pantheon of gods/goddesses. He didn't proclaim himself to be God.
He was never known to have entered Jerusalem whatsoever, let alone entered the temple.
That's a short list of ways Nero didn't meet the Scriptural criteria for the beast. The TRUE beast MUST meet all those criteria exactly, to the letter. You blew it again.