The LDS and the Biblical NT theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
There have been a number of accusations the LDS attempt to run from Biblical NT scriptures.

I challenge that--and ask for anyone's perspective on what is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

There are numerous scriptures which are found--which violate the theology pawned here, by some:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church.
 

mica

Well-known member
There have been a number of accusations the LDS attempt to run from Biblical NT scriptures.

I challenge that--and ask for anyone's perspective on what is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

There are numerous scriptures which are found--which violate the theology pawned here, by some:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That's what one will find being taught in the LDS church.
so? what about the LDS teachings that aren't biblical? baptism by proxy? that Jesus is brother of Satan? etc
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
so? what about the LDS teachings that aren't biblical? baptism by proxy?

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

that Jesus is brother of Satan? etc

Not a salvational doctrine.

So--let me post one which is a salvational LDS doctrine:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How would you fit that into your theology?
 

mica

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
please explain what that verse says and means to Mormons?

Not a salvational doctrine.

So--let me post one which is a salvational LDS doctrine:
what is required to be saved by the LDS religion?

are you a Mormon?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
those verses are pre His death, burial and resurrection. Does that mean anything significant to Mormons?

How would you fit that into your theology?
the words of the verse that are in bold fit fine in 'my theology', they align with salvation as given in NT time. one enters into life when they believe from the heart in Christ as Lord and Savior and in His sacrifice (they're born again). Those who are born again will understand and keep the commandments, but they aren't saved by keeping the commandments. Those who aren't born again and attempt to keep the commandments are living as under the law.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
please explain what that verse says and means to Mormons?
It seems to me to indicate baptisms for the dead--that all chances for baptism and salvation does not end here. There are numerous people who lived on earth which never had an opportunity to be baptized--or hear the gospel. The LDS believe they will be given an opportunity to hear the gospel, and accept or reject it.

The LDS don't believe all opportunities end here--nor progression.

what is required to be saved by the LDS religion?

are you a Mormon?
Yes, I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We believe we must follow Christ to be saved, ---have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost, enduring to the end.

those verses are pre His death, burial and resurrection. Does that mean anything significant to Mormons?

the words of the verse that are in bold fit fine in 'my theology', they align with salvation as given in NT time. one enters into life when they believe from the heart in Christ as Lord and Savior and in His sacrifice (they're born again). Those who are born again will understand and keep the commandments, but they aren't saved by keeping the commandments. Those who aren't born again and attempt to keep the commandments are living as under the law.
I would agree that one must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God--through faith in Christ. All the Early Church Fathers agreed--repentance and water baptism was connected to the born again experience.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It seems to me to indicate baptisms for the dead--that all chances for baptism and salvation does not end here.

Where does the Bible teach that those who practice "baptism for the dead" are Christians?

1 Cor. 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Do you not understand that "they" is in CONTRAST to "we", the latter being the group Paul includes himself in?

That's a HUGE assumption for a small comment made in passing.

There are numerous people who lived on earth which never had an opportunity to be baptized--or hear the gospel. The LDS believe they will be given an opportunity to hear the gospel, and accept or reject it.

That ASSUMES that "water baptism" is a "requirement" for the gospel, and such as WORK is explicitly DENIED in Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

The Bible is NO friend of the Mormon...
We believe we must follow Christ to be saved, ---have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost, enduring to the end.

And here is the difference between the truth of Christianity and the false teachings of Mormonism:

Mormonism: "We must follow Christ to be saved." (ie. works)
Christianity: "We who are saved WILL follow Christ."
I would agree that one must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God--through faith in Christ. All the Early Church Fathers agreed--repentance and water baptism was connected to the born again experience.

If you love the "Early Church Fathers" so much, why do you throw away all their teachings that "only one god exists"?

If you love the "Early Church Fathers" so much, why do you throw away all their teachings that salvation is by "faith alone"?


Well, since you brought it up, let's see how many ECF's say "water baptism is required":

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where does the Bible teach that those who practice "baptism for the dead" are Christians?

1 Cor. 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Do you not understand that "they" is in CONTRAST to "we", the latter being the group Paul includes himself in?

That's a HUGE assumption for a small comment made in passing.

What I believe is huge is Paul contrasting the baptism for the dead with the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

1 Corinthians 2:13---King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And here is the difference between the truth of Christianity and the false teachings of Mormonism:

Mormonism: "We must follow Christ to be saved." (ie. works)
Christianity: "We who are saved WILL follow Christ."
The Savior testified to this truth:

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That seems to indicate:

1) His sheep hear His voice
2) The follow Him
3) He gives them eternal life
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What I believe is huge is Paul contrasting the baptism for the dead with the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

Please stop DODGING our questions.

Can you please explain WHY Paul referred to those who practiced baptism for the dead as "they", instead of as "we" (ie. Christians)?

And can you please PROVE that that reference of "baptism for the dead" was the SAME practice that LDS do today?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Savior testified to this truth:

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That seems to indicate:

1) His sheep hear His voice
2) The follow Him
3) He gives them eternal life

No, you are ASSUMING a "temporal order" which is NOT found in the text.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Well, since you brought it up, let's see how many ECF's say "water baptism is required":

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)
Quite a few. Please note they related the Born Again experience and regeneration to water baptism.

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

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SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

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ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

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APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." (6:3:15)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
If you want to know "why Paul" wrote something, you'd best ask Paul.

Hint: I'm not Paul.
And neither did you write what the scriptures bear testimony to:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

1 Corinthians 2:13---King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Care to address those scriptures?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Quite a few. Please note they related the Born Again experience and regeneration to water baptism)

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)

ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

How nice....


YOU get to IGNORE the ECF's when they teach "only one god exists".
YOU get to IGNORE the ECF's when they teach salvation is by "faith alone".

But I do NOT get to disagree with the ECF's when you think they agree with you.

I have to LOVE your blatant double standards!

You would also need to explain to us why the ECF's are so important to believe, since YOU just proved that they CONTRADICTED themselves (your passages above in contradiction to the "faith alone, no works" quotes I gave and you RAN AWAY from)?

;)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And neither did you write what the scriptures bear testimony to:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

1 Corinthians 2:13---King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Care to address those scriptures?

Why should I waste my time?
You simply reject anything I say, and then insult me, and then proclaim an empty "victory".

You don't care what our answer is.
So I'm not wasting my time.
If you were TRULY interested, there are literally hundreds of books you could read to get your answers.

But you can't "argue" with books.
And reading books isn't "fun".
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why should I waste my time?
Theo--I'm just posting what the scriptures testify to:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

1 Corinthians 2:13---King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Care to address those scriptures? Why should that be a waste of time?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo--I'm just posting what the scriptures testify to:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

I told you.
Ask Paul.
I'm not Paul.

And it's a double standard for you to constantly demand we answer all your random and irrelevant questions, when you refuse to answer OUR questions and respond to OUR Scriptures.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
How nice...YOU get to IGNORE the ECF's when they teach "only one god exists".
How would that compare to anyone ignoring the testimony of the NT apostles--which separated out God the Son--from the "one God"?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What is your evidence the Early Church Fathers--for the main--viewed it in the same light?

How do you explain the Early Church Fathers comporting the born again experience and regeneration with water baptism?

How does that fit your theology?

Fits the LDS theology well.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I told you.
Ask Paul.
I'm not Paul.
Well--let's call upon Paul's testimony:

Theo--I'm just posting what the scriptures testify to:

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Could you explain for us why Paul would use a pagan rite to confirm the eternal truth of the Resurrection?

1 Corinthians 2:13---King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Care to address those scriptures? Why should that be a waste of time?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What is your evidence the Early Church Fathers--for the main--viewed it in the same light?

<Chuckle>

Since you asked.....


BIBLE:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things. You alone are God.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Book of Mormon:

Alma 11:27-29
Alma 11:44
Alma 14:5
Moses 1:6 (You can look up the texts yourself.... ;) )


ECF's:

1Clem. 43:6 What think ye, dearly beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would come to pass? Assuredly he knew it. But that disorder might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for ever and ever. Amen...

2Clem. 20:5 To the only God invisible, the Father of truth, who sent forth unto us the Savior and Prince of immortality, through whom also He made manifest unto us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mag. 8:2 Why, the Prophets, those men so very near to God, lived in conformity with Christ Jesus. This, too, was the reason why they were persecuted, inspired as they were by His grace to bring full conviction to an unbelieving world that there is one God, who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ, His Son—who, being His Word, came forth out of the silence into the world and won the full approval of Him whose Ambassador He was.

“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.

“Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI

“Some persons, however, find a difficulty in this faith; when they hear that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God, and yet that this Trinity is not three Gods, but one God;”
-- Augustine, On the Trinity
 
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