The LDS view of God's grace

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
Which is correct?

Grace/faith in Jesus Christ = salvation + good works

Faith in Jesus Christ + good works = grace + salvation

Bonnie--the LDS believe God's grace is with man all along the straight and narrow way which leadeth unto life.

God's grace isn't just before, during, or after--but all along.

1) God's free gift of His Atonement and resurrection, as a free gift of grace to all men--justifying all men of life.(His grace)
2) Our obedience to God==His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.(His grace)
3) His grace of the forgiveness of sins==eternal life.

His grace all along. It's never a question as to what saves us(His grace)--the question is--who does God give that grace unto life to--as a personal reception?

IOW--redemption, in Israel, if I understand it correctly--was a redeemer freeing one from debtor's prison, by paying the debt in full, as a ransom to free those in prison.

The redeemed-- agree to a certain set of conditions set by the redeemer-- for the time appointed.

If the redeemed meet those conditions--then they are freed., by the redeemer. If not--they return to debtor's prison, but not for the original debt--but for not meeting the redeemer's conditions.(second death)

The same for us--A Redeemer has redeemed us from prison--which the Fall brought to all men--as a free gift, through His Atonement and Resurrection. We now have to meet the Redeemer's conditions(walk in His light)--or we return to prison. (damnation) If we meet His conditions--then we are released from bonds, through His grace--and we are freed from our debts unto eternal life.(forgiveness of sins)

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
"Grace/faith in Jesus Christ = salvation + good works"

The way this is structured, it appears that you all believe that Grace and Faith are the same things. They aren't.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"Grace/faith in Jesus Christ = salvation + good works"

The way this is structured, it appears that you all believe that Grace and Faith are the same things. They aren't.

Please quote where any Christian has said, "Grace and Faith are the same things".

Oh wait... This is the MORMONISM forum.
It isn't even the correct forum to make false claims about what "Christians" believe.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
There is so much in these three verses. I have to wonder what our critics get out of this passage and how they reconcile it to their beliefs.
What does he mean: "God is not mocked" in the context of this passage? What is the context?

To me, the context is works "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap". If we stick with the symbology here, it seems logical, again, that if one plants a bad seed, it will not grow, if this a good seed it will. If one sows wickedness, he reaps wickedness, if he sows good things, he will reap good things.

His admonition to "be not weary in well doing" is, IMO, laying up treasures in heaven. Our critics seem to teach that it's wrong to be busy in well doing for the very reason that laying up treasures in heaven is evil or wrong. They seem to have invented a religion unto themselves casting out the gospel of Jesus Christ and making up one that they like better.

But, I'm certain we'll never get an answer to these questions.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

There is so much in these three verses. I have to wonder what our critics get out of this passage and how they reconcile it to their beliefs.

They can't. But they can deny, or ignore them.
 

kpasa

Member
They can't. But they can deny, or ignore them.
Bonnie--the LDS believe God's grace is with man all along the straight and narrow way which leadeth unto life.



Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
 

kpasa

Member
True; the Mercy is a free gift from God; the Grace is a free gift from God; and our salvation is a free gift from God through the blood, death, and resurrection of Yeshua. Even our "good works" are furnished by God through the leading of the Holy Spirit, so all we can do is respond to God's calling upon our lives and be obedient to His commandments. The problem is that some have been obedient to other commandments that were not given by God, and they tend to judge themselves as righteous. Even the Pharisees thought that they were righteous and were doing God's will by pressuring Pilate into having Yeshua crucified. Not everything that Mormons declare are commandments from God are actually from God, eh?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
True; the Mercy is a free gift from God; the Grace is a free gift from God; and our salvation is a free gift from God through the blood, death, and resurrection of Yeshua.

Morning, Kpasa:

I agree with that statement, but I do believe there might be some things we might want to consider in those beliefs.

God died for the sins of the world in His Atonement--and justified all men--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18----King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--through the "offense of one"--all men were condemned(The Fall)--even so--by the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ--all men are absolved of that automatic condemnation(death and hell, as it relates to the Fall)--and now answer for their own choices. That was a free gift, where the doors of eternal life were opened to all men, as a free gift.

Whether we enter into life--depends on one being judged according to their own works--after death--and that for His grace unto life--or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Even our "good works" are furnished by God through the leading of the Holy Spirit,

The works are from Christ--whether we do those works depends on our choice to do so, and all will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There is a point the scriptures make about the Holy Ghost also:

Acts 5:31-32--King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie--the LDS believe God's grace is with man all along the straight and narrow way which leadeth unto life.

God's grace isn't just before, during, or after--but all along.

1) God's free gift of His Atonement and resurrection, as a free gift of grace to all men--justifying all men of life.(His grace)
2) Our obedience to God==His grace unto the forgiveness of sins.(His grace)
3) His grace of the forgiveness of sins==eternal life.

His grace all along. It's never a question as to what saves us(His grace)--the question is--who does God give that grace unto life to--as a personal reception?

IOW--redemption, in Israel, if I understand it correctly--was a redeemer freeing one from debtor's prison, by paying the debt in full, as a ransom to free those in prison.

The redeemed-- agree to a certain set of conditions set by the redeemer-- for the time appointed.

If the redeemed meet those conditions--then they are freed., by the redeemer. If not--they return to debtor's prison, but not for the original debt--but for not meeting the redeemer's conditions.(second death)

The same for us--A Redeemer has redeemed us from prison--which the Fall brought to all men--as a free gift, through His Atonement and Resurrection. We now have to meet the Redeemer's conditions(walk in His light)--or we return to prison. (damnation) If we meet His conditions--then we are released from bonds, through His grace--and we are freed from our debts unto eternal life.(forgiveness of sins)

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Bump for Bonnie
 

kpasa

Member
Morning, Kpasa:

I agree with that statement, but I do believe there might be some things we might want to consider in those beliefs.

God died for the sins of the world in His Atonement--and justified all men--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18----King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--through the "offense of one"--all men were condemned(The Fall)--even so--by the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ--all men are absolved of that automatic condemnation(death and hell, as it relates to the Fall)--and now answer for their own choices. That was a free gift, where the doors of eternal life were opened to all men, as a free gift.

Whether we enter into life--depends on one being judged according to their own works--after death--and that for His grace unto life--or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



The works are from Christ--whether we do those works depends on our choice to do so, and all will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There is a point the scriptures make about the Holy Ghost also:

Acts 5:31-32--King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
The problem for Mormons (and Muslims) is that your jesus will not be doing the judging.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The problem for Mormons (and Muslims) is that your jesus will not be doing the judging.

Who are you claiming is doing the final judgment here?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Please quote where any Christian has said, "Grace and Faith are the same things".

Oh wait... This is the MORMONISM forum.
It isn't even the correct forum to make false claims about what "Christians" believe.
I have stated that the Bible sometimes uses faith and grace interchangeably as to what saves us...and that grace and faith are two sides of the same coin, since it is by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus that we are saved. But Jesus also told the woman in Luke 7:50 that her FAITH had saved her. But faith itself is also the "gift of God" and is also "grace" in a sense--God's UNdeserved favor.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Who are you claiming is doing the final judgment here?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The REAL Jesus Christ, not the fake one of Mormonism, right? But we who are in Christ Jesus and trust in Him only will not come into judgment, but HAVE PASSED--done deal--from death to life:

John 5--
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The REAL Jesus Christ, not the fake one of Mormonism, right?

Are you claiming this isn't the real Jesus?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If that is the "real Jesus"--then faith alone theology is real wrong, IMO.

Exactly what one will find being taught in the LDS church.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you claiming this isn't the real Jesus?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If that is the "real Jesus"--then faith alone theology is real wrong, IMO.

Exactly what one will find being taught in the LDS church.
No--are YOU claiming that THIS is NOT the real Jesus?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life" ?

And "Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace" ?

But then, such things are discerned and understood on a spiritual level by the indwelling Holy Spirit--and those lost in works righteous, pseudo-Christian cults cannot understand such teachings on a spiritual level because of this:

1 Cor. 2 NIV--What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I have stated that the Bible sometimes uses faith and grace interchangeably as to what saves us...and that grace and faith are two sides of the same coin,

The Bible also uses works sometimes as that which saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Which means grace, faith, and works--are all involved in the salvation process.

Anathema to faith alone theology--very friendly to LDS theology.

but HAVE PASSED--done deal--from death to life:

John 5--
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Isn't that a reference to these?

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;"

Done deal?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No--are YOU claiming that THIS is NOT the real Jesus?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life" ?

I'm claiming these are the ones who believe:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What are you claiming about John 5:28-29--as it relates to those who believe?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The Bible also uses works sometimes as that which saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Which means grace, faith, and works--are all involved in the salvation process.

Anathema to faith alone theology--very friendly to LDS theology.



Isn't that a reference to these?

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;"

Done deal?
But you have stated on here that we are saved by grace and not by works or faith...haven't you? So, which is it, dberrie?

I agree that Baptism does save us, but it is NOT absolutely essential for salvation, if one is unable to get baptized before death...so, were Cornelius and his family and friends saved AFTER they were baptized mightily by the Holy Spirit, but BEFORE they had been baptized in water? Yes or no?

But then, we read these in the Bible:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish, but have eternal life."

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

"..That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." (Romans 10)

"For by NO works of the Law will any flesh be justified."

"He saved us, NOT on the basis of works WE have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy."

And as for the last two, Paul excludes BOTH works of the Law AND righteous works we have done, when it comes to salvation--doesn't he, dberrie? SO--HOW can works help save us, when Paul has excluded BOTH kinds of works? The ONLY works that save us are the works JESUS did for us, on the cross--keeping the Law perfectly in our stead, so He would be the final and most perfect sacrifice for sins ever given--so He can give us forgiveness of sins and life eternal in His name, for all who trust and have faith in HIM and His finished work on the cross.

But to get back to Mormonism--do you think the works mentioned here in the verses you quote include Mormon temple works? Like the endowment? Marriages sealed in the temple? Tithing to be worthy to get into those temples? Observing the WoW? Wearing undergarments with Mormon symbols on them for the rest of one's life? Are these the "good" things we must do, to have eternal life?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The Bible also uses works sometimes as that which saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Which means grace, faith, and works--are all involved in the salvation process.

Anathema to faith alone theology--very friendly to LDS theology.



Isn't that a reference to these?

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;"

Done deal?
isn't believing in Jesus Christ unto salvation "doing good"? And isn't that faith unto salvation the "gift of God"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
But you have stated on here that we are saved by grace and not by works or faith...haven't you? So, which is it, dberrie?

And what is your evidence we are not saved by grace unto life--which grace goes to them which walk in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If that is true, then grace, faith, and works--are all involved in the salvation process. Grace being the agent which saves--and those who walk in His light--being those who receive of that agent of grace unto life, as a personal reception of the forgiveness of sins.
 
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