dberrie2020
Super Member
Absolutely. But that only connects doing good as being integral to belief--unto salvation.
Bonnie--that dog just ain't gonna hunt in faith alone theology.
The LDS view of God's grace
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Absolutely. But that only connects doing good as being integral to belief--unto salvation.
Bonnie--that dog just ain't gonna hunt in faith alone theology.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Absolutely. And--as the testimony of the Savior shows--His servants ar judged according to what they do with those gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":
Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
I appreciate your ability to see through the minutiae and strick to the heart of the matter. Well done.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Thanks, Brother--and a Merry Christmas to you.
The Biblical NT makes it so easy for the LDS. I'm so thankful for that witness.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Oh really?
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
Bonnie
Super Member
Really? Well then, can you show us the following IN the NT?
1. Polygamy as part of the new and everlasting covenant
2. The command to build temples all over the world
3. The command to do the endowment and make Mormon covenants in those temples
4. Men can become gods and creators of worlds and populate them with their own spirit children
5. Adam was first Michael the Archangel
6. Heavenly mother
7. Jesus and Satan are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence
8. Three levels of heaven where each is CLEARLY NAMED and WHO goes to which after death
Can you show us all of these things FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE BIBLE? After all, you said that the NT makes it so "easy" for the LDS, so you should be able to show us where these Mormon beliefs are found in the New Testament--shouldn't you?
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Bonnie
Super Member
Who enables us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation? IF "doing good" is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? Where does that faith come from?
And I noticed that you did not answer my question about Cornelius, et. al.--were they saved AFTER they had been baptized by the HS but BEFORE they had been baptized in water? YES OR NO?
dberrie2020
Super Member
If it can't--then it wouldn't be included in the things that are found both in the NT--and the LDS church.
Again--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go?
Pointing to LDS doctrines which aren't found in the Biblical NT--isn't any different than the traditional Jews pointing to all the doctrines found in the NT church, which was found nowhere in the Hebrew Bible, IE--the gift of the Holy Ghost, repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, apostles, taking the gospel to the Gentiles, as a whole, the name of Jesus Christ, etc.
That's because both the LDS church--and the NT church--were churches of continuing revelation, founded upon the foundation of the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone.
That's something churches founded upon the churches of man--after the name of a man--might not understand, nor have taken into consideration.
Acts 3:21---King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Bonnie
Super Member
You didn't answer my question, did you, dberrie? CAN you show me from the NT those list of Mormon doctrines and practices being taught IN THE NT IN THE BIBLE? Yes or no? Just writing "if it can't" is a non answer--isn't it?
Now, IF the NT makes it "so easy" for Mormons, then you should have NO problem showing us that list of Mormon beliefs IN THE NT in THE BIBLE--should you?
dberrie2020
Super Member
No--the fact is--what is found in the Biblical NT--is also what is found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines are concerned.
That's a claim which the faith alone can't make:
James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
So--all you have to do--is show us what is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.
Crickets.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Sure we can... They're the same passages you keep RUNNING AWAY from:
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
And as long as these passages remain in the Bible, Mormonism is PROVEN FALSE.
And it has been EXPLAINED to you OVER and OVER again that this does not "disprove" "faith alone", but what it is actually teaches is that our works "justify" (or "vindicate") our CLAIMS of having faith (and it is a living faith, which saves).
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (This is "dead" faith, a mere "claimed" faith.)
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(This is a "living" faith, and it is "shown" to be true by the works, cf. Eph. 2:10).
You see, dberrie, we can (and have) addressed all YOUR (out-of-context) "proof-texts" time and time again, and they fit VERY well with "faith alone".
But you have to RUN AWAY from all the "not by works" passages, because the NT is VERY "unfriendly" to Mormonism:
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
Yep.
Every time we quote BIBLE to Mormons:
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
... we get nothing but "crickets".
You should be very embarrassed, dberrie.
Bonnie
Super Member
So, you ADMIT IT! Good! Then WHY do them, when they are part of the warp and woof of Mormon theology--with the temple and its works arguably being the MOST IMPORTANT PART? Why do and believe them if they are nowhere taught in NT??
So, what can we find in the BoM that we cannot ALSO find in the Bible?
dberrie2020
Super Member
And is the very faith the faith alone claim one is saved through--a faith without works. Dead faith.
So--is it a "living faith"--before the works? Does it need works to be true faith?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Wrong.
1) "Faith alone" does NOT teach "dead faith".
2) "Faith alone" is NOT the topic of this forum.
3) Why do you keep RUNNING AWAY from trying to defend Mormonism?
Nope.
Works don't come "before" it (cf. Eph. 2:8-9), to "make" it a true faith.
Works come AFTER it (cf. Eph. 2:10), BECAUSE it is a "true faith".
In the meantime, we're STILL WAITING....
Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
Mormonism will ALWAYS be false, because Mormonism ALWAYS contradicts God's word.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Is an apple tree a "living" apple tree, before the apples grow on it?
Bonnie
Super Member
Yeah, a DEAD tree won't produce any apples--will it?
Bonnie
Super Member
What you wrote here is especially true: "Works don't come "before" it (cf. Eph. 2:8-9), to "make" it a true faith.
Works come AFTER it (cf. Eph. 2:10), BECAUSE it is a "true faith".
Which is what being created IN Christ Jesus for good works MEANS.
dberrie2020
Super Member
That might be a false dichotomy, seeing the tree which does not produce good fruit--is cast into the fire, and a faith without works is a dead faith:
Matthew 7:19---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
James 2:26---King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Anathema to faith alone theology. Very friendly to LDS theology.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Nice dodge of my question.
Followed by the expected hollow "proclamation of victory", and off-topic attack to "faith alone".
1Kings 20:11 " ‘Let not him who straps on his armor boast himself as he who takes it off.’”
dberrie2020
Super Member
That still has works as being integral to "true faith".
Bonnie--the scriptures don't connect works to a living faith in a before or after choice. What the scriptures state, is--faith without works is dead.
James 2:26---King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
That puts faith alone theology in a bind.
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