The libertarian free will dilemma

That God knows what he will do, does not mean that he could not have known himself to have done otherwise. You are conflating certainty with necessity.

Doug
Well yes God could have, if God was not the way He is. But God is a certainty, with eternally known desires.

There is no point in which they could have been different. Because there was no point at which God didn't know what His plan and purpose and desire was.
 
That God knows what he will do, does not mean that he could not have known himself to have done otherwise. You are conflating certainty with necessity.

Doug
To this in simple terms, that is logically impossible. God could not know something different than what He already knows. That would be contradictory.
 
I base my case on the premise God IS unchanging. He doesn't change His mind. It's logically impossible as God would would aready know He was going to change his mind.

Therefore He has eternal knowledge of his own intention. How could God not know his own future intentions?
Has God ever done anything different than what he said that he wanted do?

Exodus 32:7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Doug
 
Has God ever done anything different than what he said that he wanted do?

Exodus 32:7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Doug
Did God know He was Going to relent?
 
Has God ever done anything different than what he said that he wanted do?

Exodus 32:7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Doug
scripture does use such language

Jeremiah 18:8-10 (KJV)
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 26:3 (KJV)
3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.




Jeremiah 26:13 (KJV)
13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.




Jeremiah 42:10 (KJV)
10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
 
That God can know that X will certainly happen is not to say that X was actually necessary. Certainty does not logically imply necessity.

Doug
Yes a thing can be certain but not necessary

God's knowledge of an event makes it certain it will happen

but it did not make the event necessary
 
That God can know that X will certainly happen is not to say that X was actually necessary. Certainty does not logically imply necessity.

Doug
Since God works all things according to the counsel of his own will, then everything that is future will certainly happen, and it will happen in the way that God has determined. This makes everything that happens not only certain to happen, but also necessary (to fulfil the counsel of God's own will).
 
Since God works all things according to the counsel of his own will, then everything that is future will certainly happen, and it will happen in the way that God has determined. This makes everything that happens not only certain to happen, but also necessary (to fulfil the counsel of God's own will).
Determined and necessary doesn't imply unconditional of us. God just by sheer miracle cannot err.
 
IF God knows X will happen, then X will necessarily happen. Not sure how you can dispute this.
It will certainly happen. Necessity is about why something is chosen over another. It is about one option among others, and thus the question of necessity comes before the certainty of knowledge. This is a logical sequence; to God, being outside of time there is no sense of process, but there is a logical order, as you should already understand.

Doug
 
It will certainly happen. Necessity is about why something is chosen over another. It is about one option among others, and thus the question of necessity comes before the certainty of knowledge. This is a logical sequence; to God, being outside of time there is no sense of process, but there is a logical order, as you should already understand.

Doug
Why does God not understand the Logical Sequence, since Jesus is God?
 
What definitions are people using for the terms "certainty" and "necessary"?

@fltom @Simpletruther @TibiasDad

Certainty is the lack of any doubt about something. Necessity is the lack of any other option. Example: My mom's physical needs are beyond the level of care of their current assisted living facility, this necessitates a move to a full nursing facility, thus I am certain that they will be moving.

Doug
 
It will certainly happen. Necessity is about why something is chosen over another. It is about one option among others, and thus the question of necessity comes before the certainty of knowledge. This is a logical sequence; to God, being outside of time there is no sense of process, but there is a logical order, as you should already understand.

Doug
That is your definition of necessary.
If something can't be any other way it's necessary.
And knowledge doesn't have to follow choice logically.
 
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