The Libertarian Puppet Master (a.k.a. “WILL”)

Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?

Now what is this “WILL” character?

“WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

“WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

“WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation because “WILL” does not exist!

Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?

A Practical Understanding Of Libertarian Freewillism!

Mr. Flowers describes Libertarian Freewillism like this... “Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice of x or y is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or...
forums.carm.org
 
zerinus

zerinus

Well-known member
Sketo said:
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?

Now what is this “WILL” character?

“WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

“WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

“WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation because “WILL” does not exist!

Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?
Click to expand...
You are creating a straw man and a red herring by focussing on the word “will” as though it were some kind of independent object separate from the man himself. The “will” is simply descriptive of man’s ability to make free moral choices. Is man a free moral agent, or are his choices and decisions predetermined? Does he have freedom and ability to make moral choices—whether to do good or evil, to choose right or wrong, to obey God or disobey him—or doesn’t he? That is the real question that needs to be asked, and the biblical answer to that is unreservedly Yes.
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
zerinus said:
You are creating a straw man and a red herring by focussing on the word “will” as though it were some kind of independent object separate from the man himself. The “will” is simply descriptive of man’s ability to make free moral choices.
Click to expand...
Not falling for your bait-and-switch!
zerinus said:
Is man a free moral agent, or are his choices and decisions predetermined?
Click to expand...

Good question...

Does Man’s desire, character, (sin)nature, determine/cause his own will?
Or
Are these things mere influences that WILL may consider but “mysteriously” choose other than? In turn puppeting the Man!
 
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T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...
Click to expand...

Actually no they don't say that

Rather say the will is free if not externally determined

An argument based on misrepresentation is no argument at all
 
O

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Sketo said:
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?

Now what is this “WILL” character?

“WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

“WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

“WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation because “WILL” does not exist!

Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?

A Practical Understanding Of Libertarian Freewillism!

Mr. Flowers describes Libertarian Freewillism like this... “Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice of x or y is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or...
forums.carm.org
Click to expand...
Hey, I have a novel idea......why don't you give us a concise definition of your two "wills" in the OP. That way your OP might make some sense.
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Oldsaint24 said:
Hey, I have a novel idea......why don't you give us a concise definition of your two "wills" in the OP. That way your OP might make some sense.
Click to expand...

It will make sense as the Libertarians respond... just be patient.

Are you a “Libertarian free WILL” advocate yourself?
 
rhomphaeam

rhomphaeam

Super Member
Sketo said:
It will make sense as the Libertarians respond... just be patient.

Are you a “Libertarian free WILL” advocate yourself?
Click to expand...

Now you have opened a real can of worms. Free will in @Oldsaint24's definition needs a theological text book to firstly define salvation, but before that to differentiate between the seeming natural children of God and the obedient sons of God and then having made that distinction which isn't an easy call when reading his posts you have to try and resist falling into a mental schism of cognitive dissonance when it turns out that natural children of God isn't the same as being saved because being saved doesn't mean eternal realities (albeit that he gives that.a peck on the cheek) but really this amazing theology is designed to tell Calvinists that they are on the way to imprionment for a thousand years and will have no peace. Like I say its a real can of worms. I could say more optimistically that in that mire lies the story of the two wills. Honestly.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
Interesting... so this will has an internal and an external. :unsure:

So... is this will internal or external to Man?
Click to expand...
No the will does not have an external

The external; is other than the man
 
O

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
rhomphaeam said:
Now you have opened a real can of worms. Free will in @Oldsaint24's definition needs a theological text book to firstly define salvation, but before that to differentiate between the seeming natural children of God and the obedient sons of God and then having made that distinction which isn't an easy call when reading his posts you have to try and resist falling into a mental schism of cognitive dissonance when it turns out that natural children of God isn't the same as being saved because being saved doesn't mean eternal realities (albeit that he gives that.a peck on the cheek) but really this amazing theology is designed to tell Calvinists that they are on the way to imprionment for a thousand years and will have no peace. Like I say its a real can of worms. I could say more optimistically that in that mire lies the story of the two wills. Honestly.
Click to expand...
Please....give substance. ....define the two wills written in the OP. Should be no more than one or two sentences each. Why waste a bunch of time and posts?
 
Chalcedon

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Oldsaint24 said:
Please....give substance. ....define the two wills written in the OP. Should be no more than one or two sentences each. Why waste a bunch of time and posts?
Click to expand...
Jesus has 2 wills.

We have the old man( flesh) carnal mind/will and then the new man( spiritual) mind/ will with the mind of Christ.

Anything else I can educate you on today ?
 
rhomphaeam

rhomphaeam

Super Member
Oldsaint24 said:
Please....give substance. ....define the two wills written in the OP. Should be no more than one or two sentences each. Why waste a bunch of time and posts?
Click to expand...

Im thinking of writing you a poem. Just waiting for the bard to stir in me. The thing is - if it's old will its likely to be fleshy or if its new will its likely to be out of reach! Not sure which coat to wear tonight really - can you help old bean?
 
O

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
civic said:
Jesus has 2 wills.

We have the old man( flesh) carnal mind/will and then the new man( spiritual) mind/ will with the mind of Christ.

Anything else I can educate you on today ?
Click to expand...
Educate me? Funny you say that seeing you apparently do not even realize you did not answer my question! But your post is typical Calvinist, though.......giving answers that were not asked for......then assuming it was an intellectual response. You guys.......
 
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