The Libertarian Puppet Master (a.k.a. “WILL”)

[Kampioen]

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

So who establishes Gods steps?

No one. But God is omniscient. We are not. So it doesn't deny that God's or our plans are libertarian.

 

[TomFL]

The “who” is clear in post #46...

Inconsistency is confounding!

Yes you

Who conflates man and his will at times and at other as though the will was independent of the man

 

[rhomphaeam]

Mormonism is true. It is a restoration of God’s true Church on earth, after the original one had apostatized. You believe in an apostate religion which is leading you astray.

No kidding! I'm never sure why when I read something from yourself I am rocked with wonder and unspeakable joy of surprise accompanied with veritable bowels of soberness. I think I may even have a heart burn. Aldersgate here we come!

 

[zerinus]

No kidding! I'm never sure why when I read something from yourself I am rocked with wonder and unspeakable joy of surprise accompanied with veritable bowels of soberness. I think I may even have a heart burn. Aldersgate here we come!

Matthew 16:

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

 

[Sketo]

The will is simply a facility of man used to make a decision

Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?

 

[TomFL]

Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?

Yes

but that is the only one which makes a decisionl

 

[Sketo]

Who conflates man and his will at times and at other as though the will was independent of the man

Good question... let’s see here...

No the will does not have an external

The external; is other than the man

You “conflate man and his will”... this time...

---

...and at other...

The will is a facility of man you might as well claim the man is controlled by the man

Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?

Yes

but that is the only one which makes a decision

...as though the will was independent of the man

---

So, as you can see, TomFL, you are the one “Who conflates man and his will at times and at other as though the will was independent of the man!

 

[TomFL]

Good question... let’s see here...


You “conflate man and his will”... this time...

...and at other...



Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?
...as though the will was independent of the man

Wrong the will is a facility of the man and not external or independent of the man

 

[Sketo]

Wrong the will is a facility of the man and not external or independent of the man

Good...now that that is established...

---

Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?

Yes

but that is the only one which makes a decisionl

Now will you affirm that there are other parts of man that are internal to man but external to will... correct?

 

[Sethproton]

Not falling for your bait-and-switch!


Good question...

Does Man’s desire, character, (sin)nature, determine/cause his own will?
Or
Are these things mere influences that WILL may consider but “mysteriously” choose other than? In turn puppeting the Man!

Nothing causes our will. God created us with a will. Our will drives us, not the other way around.

 

[Sethproton]

Wrong the will is a facility of the man and not external or independent of the man

Yes, Calvinist try to complicate this discussion into something unrecognizable. When you try to get them to simplify and clarify their arguments about will, they are unable because at heart it is not based on truth, just on diversionary tactics.

 

[guest1]

Yes, Calvinist try to complicate this discussion into something unrecognizable. When you try to get them to simplify and clarify their arguments about will, they are unable because at heart it is not based on truth, just on diversionary tactics.

What does your Calvinist Pastor say when you tell him that ?

😂😂😂😂😂

 

[Sketo]

Nothing causes our will. God created us with a will. Our will drives us, not the other way around.

You agree with Tom... even though he states “the other way around” from you?... ... wheird.

The will is simply a facility of man used to make a decision

TomFL says another part of man uses this facility called “will”...

Sethproton says this “the other way around”... this “WILL” “drives the man”...

... Sounds like two different things with the same name to me...

 

[guest1]

You agree with Tom... even though he states “the other way around” from you?... ... wheird.



TomFL says another part of man uses this facility called “will”...

Sethproton says this “the other way around”... this “WILL” “drives the man”...

... Sounds like two different things with the same name to me...

They can’t get their stories straight 😂

 

[Sketo]

They can’t get their stories straight 😂

That’s the whole point of the OP...

im just trying to find where desire, sin nature, character fits in their system...

Some LFWers say
1) “will is a part of man”

others say
2) “will is Man”

and yet others say
3) “WILL drives man”

---

If they say desire is external to “will” then...

#1 allows desire to be external to will and internal to man

#2 places desire outside of man

#3 is a strange entity that puppets man

---

Trying to find scenario that keeps consistency for all parts is difficult in the LFW system.

Calvinism is simple and consistent...

Calvinism =
Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will!

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

What do you think?

 

[TomFL]

Good...now that that is established...

---

Are there other “facilities” of man that are not “The will”?


Now will you affirm that there are other parts of man that are internal to man but external to will... correct?

That are not part of the will - of course

 

[TomFL]

You agree with Tom... even though he states “the other way around” from you?... ... wheird.



TomFL says another part of man uses this facility called “will”...

Sethproton says this “the other way around”... this “WILL” “drives the man”...

... Sounds like two different things with the same name to me...

Tom stated man uses the will to make a decision

 

[Sketo]

Tom stated man uses the will to make a decision

I would say the other facilities of man make the decision before the will is engaged. Will is just simply the final facility that moves towards the object that the other facilities have already decided upon.

---

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

What do you think?

 

[Sethproton]

You agree with Tom... even though he states “the other way around” from you?... ... wheird.



TomFL says another part of man uses this facility called “will”...

Sethproton says this “the other way around”... this “WILL” “drives the man”...

... Sounds like two different things with the same name to me...

I don't read everything Tom writes and he has told me he does not agree with everything I write. So no, you have to limit our agreement with each other.
But in this case, Tom and I are describing the same dynamic, using different words.
"using the facility of will" and the "will driving the man" are expressing two sides of the same truth. In both cases we are contrary to the idea that God controls the will. Or any force or drive overpowers our will.

 

[Sketo]

@TomFL

Tom and I are describing the same dynamic, using different words.
"using the facility of will" and the "will driving the man" are expressing two sides of the same truth.

I would be interested to see if Tom concurs with you on the above.

What is “using the facility of the “will” if “the WILL is driving the man”?

Sounds like circular reasoning to me!

Our will drives us, not the other way around.

I don’t believe he agrees with this... but I will allow him to answer for himself...