The Libertarian Puppet Master (a.k.a. “WILL”)

[Sethproton]

@TomFL



I would be interested to see if Tom concurs with you on the above.

What is “using the facility of the “will” if “the WILL is driving the man”?

Sounds like circular reasoning to me!



I don’t believe he agrees with this... but I will allow him to answer for himself...

And I could be wrong, Tom may see that as two different things.
And you ask What is “using the facility of the “will” if “the WILL is driving the man”?
The will does not operate as a separate entity from a man. It just the word we use to describe how a man chooses to pursue what he wants.

 

[TomFL]

I would say the other facilities of man make the decision before the will is engaged. Will is just simply the final facility that moves towards the object that the other facilities have already decided upon.

---

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

What do you think?

 

[TomFL]

I would say the other facilities of man make the decision before the will is engaged. Will is just simply the final facility that moves towards the object that the other facilities have already decided upon.

The will is the facility that makes the decision


What other Facility would you think makes the decision

---

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

What do you think?

Influences are external to the man and are not decision makers

Man's nature and Character do influence the will as well

Sin also influences the will but influences need not be deterministic

and what is the greatest desire may change depending on a number of factors

 

[Sketo]

And you ask What is “using the facility of the “will” if “the WILL is driving the man”?

The will does not operate as a separate entity from a man. It just the word we use to describe how a man chooses to pursue what he wants.

“a man chooses to pursue what he wants” is not the same as “the WILL is driving the man”

It is opposite... and circular reasoning!

 

[Sketo]

The will is the facility that makes the decision

I disagree! The will is NOT the decision maker!

What other Facility would you think makes the decision

As I stated previously...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

Influences are external to the man and are not decision makers

Agreed as stated above!

Man's nature and Character do influence the will as well

This is where we disagree! I believe the decision is already made before the will is engaged! The will is just the action towards the decision already made!
The will does not decide!

Sin also influences the will but influences need not be deterministic

But sin is part of determining the choice before the will is engaged!
Sin effects the whole man... including the will!

and what is the greatest desire may change depending on a number of factors

And when it is finally settled the will is engaged to move towards the final greatest desire!

 

[preacher4truth]

The will is the facility that makes the decision

Pure Finney religion, not remotely biblical, not Christianity.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I disagree! The will is NOT the decision maker!


As I stated previously...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!



Agreed as stated above!



This is where we disagree! I believe the decision is already made before the will is engaged! The will is just the action towards the decision already made!
The will does not decide!



But sin is part of determining the choice before the will is engaged!
Sin effects the whole man... including the will!



And when it is finally settled the will is engaged to move towards the final greatest desire!

That very good, Amen,

 

[TomFL]

I disagree! The will is NOT the decision maker!

Pray tell what do you think is then

 

[Sketo]

Pray tell what do you think is then

As previously stated... again...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

 

[TomFL]

Pure Finney religion, not remotely biblical, not Christianity.

You don't have a clue

Saying the will is the facility of man used to make a decision has absolutely nothing at all to do with finney



1. THE NATURE OF THE HUMAN WILL

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action.

Not Finney but

Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Swengel, PA: Bible Truth Depot, 1949), 138.

Hello

You just reveal how little you know when you make such absurd statements as above

 

[TomFL]

As previously stated... again...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

And I think the will takes into account all the desires, circumstance and influence and come to a decision

Apparently Pink agrees with me



1. THE NATURE OF THE HUMAN WILL

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action.


Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Swengel, PA: Bible Truth Depot, 1949), 138.

Certainly not a flaming Pelagian is he

 

[Sketo]

1. THE NATURE OF THE HUMAN WILL

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action.

Sounds singular to me. “choice” not choices

“choice” “the immediate cause of all action”

Filtered down to the greatest desired “choice” then that is “the immediate cause of all action”

Seems like the action is in response to the choice settled upon

he might just agree with me instead

It’s not quite clear enough to tell exactly what he means without more context!

 

[Sethproton]

“a man chooses to pursue what he wants” is not the same as “the WILL is driving the man”

It is opposite... and circular reasoning!

Pursuing what you want and exercising your will are identical ideas for me. Why are they different for you?

 

[Sketo]

Pursuing what you want and exercising your will are identical ideas for me. Why are they different for you?

Those may be identical ideas but they are not the same as...

“the WILL is driving the man”

Drop “the WILL is driving the man” bit, and you might be on to something!

 

[Sethproton]

Those may be identical ideas but they are not the same as...


Drop “the WILL is driving the man” bit, and you might be on to something!

You are swallowing a camel and choking on a gnat.
But of course the silent issue here is that Calvinists absolutely refuse to define the will. They just play games saying, "No that's wrong" *That's wrong" "Nope"
Look in this thread. See if a single Calvinist gave it a shot. They never do. It appears they just don't want the will to be anything you can pin down so they can continue to deny...what? Do they even know what they are denying?

 

[Sketo]

You are swallowing a camel and choking on a gnat.
But of course the silent issue here is that Calvinists absolutely refuse to define the will. They just play games saying, "No that's wrong" *That's wrong" "Nope"
Look in this thread. See if a single Calvinist gave it a shot. They never do. It appears they just don't want the will to be anything you can pin down so they can continue to deny...what? Do they even know what they are denying?

...

Post #75

Post #78

Post #85

Post #89

 

[Kampioen]

You are swallowing a camel and choking on a gnat.
But of course the silent issue here is that Calvinists absolutely refuse to define the will. They just play games saying, "No that's wrong" *That's wrong" "Nope"
Look in this thread. See if a single Calvinist gave it a shot. They never do. It appears they just don't want the will to be anything you can pin down so they can continue to deny...what? Do they even know what they are denying?

Their questions are the moving target they accuse free-willers of in the OP, so they can supposedly prove themselves right.

But the Calvinist will is exteriorly determined by the previous domino, not themselves.

 

[Sethproton]

...

Post #75

Post #78

Post #85

Post #89

My apologies. I think post 78 has this: Will is just simply the final facility that moves towards the object that the other facilities have already decided upon.
So yes, this is a definition
None of the other three took a stab at "Will" without using a form of the word "Will"

And have to say it is not much different from the other definitions/ideas that have been posted. Just a different way of saying what others have said.
But I should learn not to categorize a poster based on previous interactions with other posters, Sorry.

 

[Sethproton]

Their questions are the moving target they accuse free-willers of in the OP, so they can supposedly prove themselves right.

But the Calvinist will is exteriorly determined by the previous domino, not themselves.

Ok, and there is also the calvinist idea that the will is crippled, unable to actually want something enough to will it to happen. (Sorry reading my sentence it sounds silly, but at the moment I dont know how else to express it)

 

[Sketo]

My apologies. I think post 78 has this: Will is just simply the final facility that moves towards the object that the other facilities have already decided upon.
So yes, this is a definition
None of the other three took a stab at "Will" without using a form of the word "Will"

And have to say it is not much different from the other definitions/ideas that have been posted. Just a different way of saying what others have said.
But I should learn not to categorize a poster based on previous interactions with other posters, Sorry.

I appreciate and accept your apology.
I forgive you.