The Libertarian Puppet Master (a.k.a. “WILL”)

Sketo

Well-known member
Their questions are the moving target they accuse free-willers of in the OP, so they can supposedly prove themselves right.
No... Your answers are moving targets! The questions are designed to prevent the answers from moving to far outside of truth.
But the Calvinist will is exteriorly determined by the previous domino, not themselves.
You are Partly correct...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
No... Your answers are moving targets! The questions are designed to prevent the answers from moving to far outside of truth.

You are Partly correct...

Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!
I agree except that the soul/spirit provides the Libertarian will that filters through that thought process along the way.

For Calvinism the last domino is just another domino, partly of the whole chain as you imply.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?


Now what is this “WILL” character?

WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation becauseWILL” does not exist!


Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?


John Calvin speaks about free will in the following six ways:

1. Adam had free will and freely chose to sin.

2. Adam lost free will because free will requires the mind to deliberate and to discern good from evil before choosing one of these ends. In this sense, free will no longer exists in humans because our natures have become corrupted. (Meaning having, power of contrary choice; to chose either way without without bias. In this way man possess Free-Will. To have a bias, desire, appetite, lust, addiction the Will in this matter is not Free; the liberty of the Will is in bondage to what it loves to do.


3. Yet all people by nature have an impulse toward the good. This impulse, however, is an animal impulse which does not follow from reason deliberating between good and evil and choosing one or the other (a requirement for free will; Inst. 2.2.26).

4. The regenerate have free will restored to them in part now, and then in full in heaven.

5. As a consequence, fallen people lack the ability to do good (since that requires free will). Fallen people then only do moral evil (since the impulse towards good seems, for Calvin, to be vice since not rational).

6. When fallen people sin then, they do so by necessity but not by compulsion (Inst. 2.3.5). In this way, Calvin seeks to affirm that humans sin willingly without compulsion, even if they necessarily sin.

As a side note, he follows the logic of Bernard of Clairvaux and Augustine as he distinguishes how people willingly sin apart from compulsion yet do so by a necessity of nature (remember: free will requires reason to distinguish good from evil before the will chooses it; Adam lost us this creaturely capacity, and so our nature is totally corrupt in all its faculties. Now, we do good by animal impulse not reasonable choice).
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sounds singular to me. “choice” not choices

“choice” “the immediate cause of all action”

Filtered down to the greatest desired “choice” then that is “the immediate cause of all action” :unsure:

Seems like the action is in response to the choice settled upon

he might just agree with me instead

It’s not quite clear enough to tell exactly what he means without more context!
Sounds to me like you are reading into the statement what is not there

1. THE NATURE OF THE HUMAN WILL

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action.

It is the will not something else making the choice
 

Sketo

Well-known member
the WILL is driving the man

I would like to revisit your statement above. I may have been to hasty in my initial assumed meaning. I realize now that this statement is not as clear on its meaning and could be taken two ways.

Possible meaning #1
The WILL is in the driver seat headed to destination A while man’s nature, character, desire are in the passenger seat trying to influence WILL to go to destination B but WILL considers the influences and mysteriously “chooses” other than man’s nature, character, and desire!

Possible meaning #2
Mans nature, character, desire are in the driver seat and they determine that location A is the destination, then they put that location into “will” and “will drives the man” to that location and “will” does not change course unless nature, character, desire, at some point, input a different location.

I believe (meaning #1) is representative of LFWism

I believe (meaning #2) is representative of Calvinism


Which was your meaning?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I would like to revisit your statement above. I may have been to hasty in my initial assumed meaning. I realize now that this statement is not as clear on its meaning and could be taken two ways.

Possible meaning #1
The WILL is in the driver seat headed to destination A while man’s nature, character, desire are in the passenger seat trying to influence WILL to go to destination B but WILL considers the influences and mysteriously “chooses” other than man’s nature, character, and desire!

Possible meaning #2
Mans nature, character, desire are in the driver seat and they determine that location A is the destination, then they put that location into “will” and “will drives the man” to that location and “will” does not change course unless nature, character, desire, at some point, input a different location.

I believe (meaning #1) is representative of LFWism

I believe (meaning #2) is representative of Calvinism


Which was your meaning?
Not sure which one to pick. both seem contrary to what I understand. But let me give it another shot before I head to church,

The will is not a separate part of a person. It cannot be dissected out of a person. It is a concept. The name of the concept '"will" describes what it does. It is a decider, a chooser, a determiner, Apparently, despite it having no power to accomplish anything, it drives the decisions to do.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The will is not a separate part of a person. It cannot be dissected out of a person.
Agreed. So not Meaning #1... Good for you.

It is a concept. The name of the concept '"will" describes what it does.
I agree with this part... but then I disagree with the next part...
It is a decider, a chooser, a determiner,...
I don’t believe you can deduce these attributes from the name “will”.
Also this seems to ”dissect” will away from the other characteristics, that make up man and puts them back in the passenger seat... but then you would be back to Meaning #1 again.

Apparently, despite it having no power to accomplish anything, it drives the decisions to do.

This seems to contradict your statement above by stating it “has no power to accomplish” “a decision”, “a choice”, “a determination”... then adding “it drives the decisions to do” possibly would place you back into Meaning 2 again.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Agreed. So not Meaning #1... Good for you.


I agree with this part... but then I disagree with the next part...

I don’t believe you can deduce these attributes from the name “will”.
Also this seems to ”dissect” will away from the other characteristics, that make up man and puts them back in the passenger seat... but then you would be back to Meaning #1 again.



This seems to contradict your statement above by stating it “has no power to accomplish” “a decision”, “a choice”, “a determination”... then adding “it drives the decisions to do” possibly would place you back into Meaning 2 again.
What you are doing is breaking my post into meaningless pieces instead of understanding the whole of it. Sure each piece builds on the truth but if you look at each piece as THE WHOLE TRUTH, then you miss the interconnection of the pieces.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
What you are doing is breaking my post into meaningless pieces instead of understanding the whole of it. Sure each piece builds on the truth but if you look at each piece as THE WHOLE TRUTH, then you miss the interconnection of the pieces.

But that’s the problem... in your explination I do not see interconnection... I see you explaining the “will” as an independent master over the other characteristics that make up man!

WILL is running the show, while dragging the other aspects of man around with it!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?


Now what is this “WILL” character?

WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation becauseWILL” does not exist!


Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?


Kind of silly as the will is part of the man

so the man is he own puppet master

Pretty strange comment from one who believes all his action were determined by another

Will the real puppet please stand up
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
But that’s the problem... in your explination I do not see interconnection... I see you explaining the “will” as an independent master over the other characteristics that make up man!

WILL is running the show, while dragging the other aspects of man around with it!
But those are your words based on only incorporating pieces of what I said.
I think that part of our issue here is that the will is a simple issue. As such, it can be difficult to define, especially in light of each of our assumptions.
When I or anyone speak of our will, we speak of our self, not some facility that exists separate from our self.
What the will wants cannot always be accomplished, but that does not change what it wills to happen.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Pretty strange comment from one who believes all his action were determined by another

Yes the will is “determined by another” part of man as I stated previously...


Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!

Will the real puppet please stand up

Did you miss it?... again for your convenience...

“Man’s nature, character, desire
 

Sketo

Well-known member
But those are your words based on only incorporating pieces of what I said.
I think that part of our issue here is that the will is a simple issue. As such, it can be difficult to define, especially in light of each of our assumptions.

As I observe your explanations, thus far, I have not read mention of any of the other parts, of man, included in your explanations. You give 100% credit to “WILL” and 0 mention of any other part. This is the reason for my conclusions

You see how the conversation is going... so, if you don’t mind giving an explination of how the whole of man, including nature, character, desire, sin, will, all interconnect and work with each other that would be helpful for us all.

Then we can work out the kinks together... you know Iron sharpening Iron style!

When I or anyone speak of our will, we speak of our self, not some facility that exists separate from our self.

This seams to not leave any room for character, nature, desire, sin... therefore I conclude those are external from “self” or internal to “will”. Where do these other characteristics, of “self”, fall in your system?

I only see two options in your explination...

1) external to self
2) internal to will

What the will wants cannot always be accomplished, but that does not change what it wills to happen.

100% “WILL”... Where do the other characteristics fall? And what part do they play? or do they not play a part at all?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yes the will is “determined by another” part of man as I stated previously...


Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself.

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!



Did you miss it?... again for your convenience...

“Man’s nature, character, desire
Not buying it

Satan has no determiniative power

and employing an intermediary cause under your control does not change the ultimate cause of the sin

in your theology that is God

and the one who sinned the puppet whose strings were pulled
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
As I observe your explanations, thus far, I have not read mention of any of the other parts, of man, included in your explanations. You give 100% credit to “WILL” and 0 mention of any other part. This is the reason for my conclusions

You see how the conversation is going... so, if you don’t mind giving an explination of how the whole of man, including nature, character, desire, sin, will, all interconnect and work with each other that would be helpful for us all.

Then we can work out the kinks together... you know Iron sharpening Iron style!



This seams to not leave any room for character, nature, desire, sin... therefore I conclude those are external from “self” or internal to “will”. Where do these other characteristics, of “self”, fall in your system?

I only see two options in your explination...

1) external to self
2) internal to will



100% “WILL”... Where do the other characteristics fall? And what part do they play? or do they not play a part at all?
As I respond to your posts, it seems clear to me that the real issue is you want the will to be controlled outside of the person, so anything that is said to you that does not agree with that idea, you see as confusing or conflicting.
But I will be simple again if I can. "WILL" is not a separate facility of a man. It just means the part of us that wants and chooses.
A person can be corrupted, confused, conflicted but whatever is important to a person they will want. Nothing outside of us can control what we want in the specific way of imposing a desire upon us. Yet we can mature and become more spiritual and change what we want which will change what we will to happen.
I see no such thing as internal to or external to.

The Greek word thelema is defined as what one wishes or has determined shall be done
That word is translated "Will"
So if you want to discuss what the New testament means by "will" I would start there with the definition of the Greek word.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
As I respond to your posts, it seems clear to me that the real issue is you want the will to be controlled outside of the person, so anything that is said to you that does not agree with that idea, you see as confusing or conflicting.
But I will be simple again if I can. "WILL" is not a separate facility of a man. It just means the part of us that wants and chooses.
A person can be corrupted, confused, conflicted but whatever is important to a person they will want. Nothing outside of us can control what we want in the specific way of imposing a desire upon us. Yet we can mature and become more spiritual and change what we want which will change what we will to happen.
I see no such thing as internal to or external to.

The Greek word thelema is defined as what one wishes or has determined shall be done
That word is translated "Will"
So if you want to discuss what the New testament means by "will" I would start there with the definition of the Greek word.

I have never had a LFWer clearly answer this simple question...

Does mans desire effect the “will” from within the “will” or from outside the “will”?

Can you answer this simple question?
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
Not buying it
Nothing to buy.
Satan has no determiniative power

Sin nature does not need to be directly determined by Satan!

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3
and employing an intermediary cause under your control does not change the ultimate cause of the sin
The ultimate cause of sin is the sin nature of fallen man!

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19
in your theology that is God

God is the creator, sustainer, and purpose behind all things. But, that is not tantamount with being the author of evil. That’s why Satan exists. Satan is the instrument through which necessary evil occurs in God’s universe. Think, for instance, of how God used Satan to bring calamity to Job. God allowed it and limited the extent of it. But, it was Satan who performed it.

Or, who brought about the fall in the Garden of Eden? Satan. But, was that God’s design? Yes. Christ is the “lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8) Why have a sacrifice prepared prior to creation unless the Fall is ordained and inevitable? But, God did not sin in ordaining the lapse. He used an intermediate cause: Satan.

Everything God does is designed to bring Him the greatest glory. And that includes His control over the events of human history and celestial eternity. The responsibility for everything that occurs in God’s universe can rightly be laid at His holy feet. But, that is not the same as charging Him with evil, which no man can do.

Isa 45:5-7 — “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.



For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. - Matthew 15:19-20
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
I have never had a LFWer clearly answer this simple question...

Does mans desire effect the “will” from within the “will” or from outside the “will”?

Can you answer this simple question?

The Libertarian Will and the desire are outside of each other but interconnected but conglomerately inside the man. The affects on the desire come from within and outside the man.

Now you can't say the some question was not answered.

The Calvinist view has the within and outside of the man as the last two dominoes of the set where the Will is only perceived to be libertarianly free. Correct?
 
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