The Libertarian Puppet Master (a.k.a. “WILL”)

Sketo

Well-known member
The Libertarian Will and the desire are outside of each other but interconnected but conglomerately inside the man.
Thank you for this clear answer!

You are different from other LFWers because most do say that the man is the will and you can see the problem this would cause with your statement above.

The statement the man is the will leaves no room for desire to be “inside the man” without also being “inside the will”!

Do you see the problem with the statement the man is the will?

The Calvinist view has the within and outside of the man as the last two dominoes of the set where the Will is only perceived to be libertarianly free. Correct?
As stated previously...

Calvinism is simple and consistent...

Calvinism =
Influences are external to man...
Mans nature, character, desire filters through those influences before the will...
Then the greatest desired influence becomes the object of willing

Sin affects it all before it reaches the will... and the will itself!

God can intervene at any point before the will!

I believe this is clear, consistent, and biblical!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I have never had a LFWer clearly answer this simple question...

Does mans desire effect the “will” from within the “will” or from outside the “will”?

Can you answer this simple question?
There is no such thing as within the will or outside the will. There is actually no such entity as the will. It is simply a word to denote our facility of what we desire
 
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TomFL

Guest
Nothing to buy.


Sin nature does not need to be directly determined by Satan!

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

A sin nature does not determine every particular sin in every circumstance

Did you forget you believe in the meticulous divine determination of all things

That God in all eternity determined all that comes to pass. Every thought desire and deed
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
A sin nature does not determine every particular sin in every circumstance

Did you forget you believe in the meticulous divine determination of all things

That God in all eternity determined all that comes to pass. Every thought desire and deed
Do you know from what scripture we get the concept of a sin nature? Is it just referring to the flesh?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Do you know from what scripture we get the concept of a sin nature? Is it just referring to the flesh?
It generally is deduced from the universal pattern of sin rather than a specific verse

although


Ephesians 2:3 (KJV)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

may do so
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Do you know from what scripture we get the concept of a sin nature? Is it just referring to the flesh?

This is just a few that I can think of...

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. - Matthew 15:19-20

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It generally is deduced from the universal pattern of sin rather than a specific verse

although


Ephesians 2:3 (KJV)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

may do so
And that could make sense as a way to refer to our nature. It is a phrase I have always accepted, but from time to time, I ask myself where these things come from. I look up the word "nature" and see that it refers to origin, like where a tree limb comes from. "children of wrath" based on that, does indicate we are offshoots of wrath, so maybe speaking of the inherited nature. So while it isn't a sin nature, it sounds related
Thanks
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This is just a few that I can think of...

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. - Matthew 15:19-20

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Thanks I appreciate the references. One thing you should consider in Rom 5:19, is the phrase that follows, "because all sinned" Seems to be a combination of what Adam did and what we do.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Thanks I appreciate the references. One thing you should consider in Rom 5:19, is the phrase that follows, "because all sinned" Seems to be a combination of what Adam did and what we do.

I believe you are referring back to...

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. - Romans 5:12-13


... which is referring to “death spreading to all men”.


I believe Rom 5:19 is referring to the origin of the nature that leads to that “death”...

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5:18-21
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I believe you are referring back to...

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. - Romans 5:12-13


... which is referring to “death spreading to all men”.


I believe Rom 5:19 is referring to the origin of the nature that leads to that “death”...

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5:18-21
death spread to all because all sinned.
That phrase explains why we all die, right? Because we sin. It does not claim the opposite that we sin because we die,
 
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TomFL

Guest
And that could make sense as a way to refer to our nature. It is a phrase I have always accepted, but from time to time, I ask myself where these things come from. I look up the word "nature" and see that it refers to origin, like where a tree limb comes from. "children of wrath" based on that, does indicate we are offshoots of wrath, so maybe speaking of the inherited nature. So while it isn't a sin nature, it sounds related
Thanks
You are welcome
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Did you ever define the "red" will verses the "green" will? IF you did, would you give me the post #?

These simple questions are surprising difficult for LFWists to answer together. Can you answer them clearly?... or at least explain why they have such a difficult time answering clearly?

Would you say desire effects the will from within... or does desire effect the will from outside the will?

Would you say desire effects the man from within... or does desire effect the man from outside the man?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. - Romans 5:12-13



Why do you impose the word "physical" on the passage? What is your basis for doing that?

Did you think it was speaking of something other than “physical” death?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. - Romans 5:12-13





Did you think it was speaking of something other than “physical” death?
Yes, because sin does not cause physical death
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The will of Man or the “WILL” of man? That is the question!

What is the easiest way to create a false god and bring it into Christianity without anyone being the wiser?

You give it a name that is spelled, and sounds, exactly like something acceptable in the Bible! A bait-and-switch!

I believe FreeWILLers have done this exact thing with “WILL”! They claim that man has a “WILL” and we agree that man has a will! See how easy that was? We fall for the bait-and-switch in conversations all the time! Stop falling for it!

We say that Man’s nature, character, desire causes Mans will...

They say if Man’s nature, character, desire cause “WILL” then “WILL” is not “free”...

and to that we, ignorantly, say something like... but will is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire...

and they, bait-and-switch, and say something like... of course “WILL” is not free from Man’s nature, character, desire... but those are mere influences, not causes!

See how the bait-and-switch works?


Now what is this “WILL” character?

WILL” is not Man... “WILL” is not even a part of Man! “WILL” is the “Libertarian Puppet Master” of Man! When this “WILL” character chooses then it determines Man’s will!

WILL” may consider Man’s desire but “WILL”, as they claim, may choose other than Man’s desire!

WILL” considers all influences that are external to “WILL” but “WILL” can not be caused by any of those mere influences! If there is found that there is a cause external to “WILL” then they consider that a different “Puppet Master” of Man, and “WILL” is removed as the one in control of Man... and at that point they lose their mind!

This is why they say that desire is only a mere influence because it is external to this “WILL” character!

Have you noticed yet that we have not been talking about Man’s will any more?

You know the will that is subject to Man’s desire? Not the other way around!

This is also why they can not explain the mechanism that causes “WILL” to land on X instead of Y! “WILL” has no explanation becauseWILL” does not exist!


Question...

Is Man in control of his own will?
or
Is “WILL” in control of its own man?



 
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