The linguistic subject of John 20:28

John Milton

Well-known member
You tried to recover there but your original statement was not qualified.

So that was 0/1.
Another lie, Roger. Here is what you said from the beginning:
I see. At John 20:28 you follow those who supply a subject and verb to "My Lord and my God" for "You are My Lord and my God." This is the predicative view as "You" becomes the predicate of "My Lord and my God."

I supply my verb from the immediate context. In verse 27 Jesus told Thomas to believe, just like at John 14:1.

So Thomas naturally says "I believe in my Lord and my God." I call this the contextual objective view.

Just days earlier Jesus singles out Thomas and said: Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. (ASV, John 14:1,5)

Both views are grammatical. I believe mine is more contextual.
In this quote, you said that you could achieve the meaning "I believe in my Lord and my God" by supplying only a verb with the meaning "believe."
Except that in John 14:1, 5 Thomas is not "singled out" by Jesus, and he doesn't express a lack of faith in God. He says they (the apostles) don't know where Jesus is going, and he questions how they will know where he went.

John 20 tells us what Thomas doesn't believe. ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ οἱ ἄλλοι μαθηταί· ἑωράκαμεν τὸν κύριον. ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ἐὰν μὴ ἴδω ἐν ταῖς χερσὶν αὐτοῦ τὸν τύπον τῶν ἥλων καὶ βάλω τὸν δάκτυλόν μου εἰς τὸν τύπον τῶν ἥλων καὶ βάλω μου τὴν χεῖρα εἰς τὴν πλευρὰν αὐτοῦ, οὐ μὴ πιστεύσω. He didn't believe that the apostles had seen the Lord, as they kept telling him they had, and says he wouldn't believe it unless he had visual and tangible evidence. He seems to be indicating that he required more proof that Jesus had been raised than Jesus granted to the apostles earlier, where the text records only that they saw the Lord (καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἔδειξεν τὰς χεῖρας καὶ τὴν πλευρὰν αὐτοῖς. ἐχάρησαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ ἰδόντες τὸν κύριον). When he saw Jesus on this occasion, he finally recognized that by seeing Jesus he had seen God (λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· τοσούτῳ χρόνῳ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωκάς με, Φίλιππε; ὁ ἑωρακὼς ἐμὲ ἑώρακεν τὸν πατέρα).

It is likely to suppose that Thomas lost faith in Jesus as the Messiah (like those in Luke 24:41), but not likely that he stopped believing in God. The main point of John 14 is that access to God is impossible without belief in Jesus. This reinforced in John 21:31, "ταῦτα δὲ γέγραπται ἵνα πιστεύ[σ]ητε ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ χριστὸς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἵνα πιστεύοντες ζωὴν ἔχητε ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ." It is this belief in Jesus that John builds his gospel around.

And since you seem so keen to talk about the Greek grammar I don't think you understand, I will also point out that πιστεύω would take datives...
In this quote, I pointed out the text can't mean "I believe in my Lord and my God" because it does not have datives. You then replied:
I cited John 14:1 as support for my reading and respectfully point out that there we find it has the verb "believe" (πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεον) taking the accusative, not dative
And I rebutted you:
You find it there with a preposition that takes an accusative. You could also have it with ἐν with a dative. But you don't have either of these cases in John 20:28. Your newly proposed rendering requires you to supply both a verb and a preposition and would still require something different than the nominative case present in the verse, which you would know if you knew Greek...
The text cannot be understood in the manner you suggested since the dative case isn't present in the text. You did not mention adding a preposition along with a verb, so your example wasn't relevant.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
You're simply not punching back.

Address the grammar:

Fact is John 20:28 meets all three factors for a nominative of exclamation (call it "a sub-category of.. " or something else, it doesn't matter, it's unimportant ). The grammatical facts are that the expression lacks a verb, the obvious emotion of the author is apparent and we need an exclamation point in translation.
It matters a great deal in the passage you have quoted because Wallace plainly says that he is giving his idiosyncratic definition of the nominative of exclamation. It is an example of his fondness for creating subcategories. You can find people who disagree with this approach generally, and I'm confident that you can find people who don't recognize the distinction he makes here.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Another lie, Roger. Here is what you said from the beginning:

In this quote, you said that you could achieve the meaning "I believe in my Lord and my God" by supplying only a verb with the meaning "believe."

In this quote, I pointed out the text can't mean "I believe in my Lord and my God" because it does not have datives. You then replied:

And I rebutted you:

The text cannot be understood in the manner you suggested since the dative case isn't present in the text. You did not mention adding a preposition along with a verb, so your example wasn't relevant.

You appear to forget why you went 0/2 and 0/3.

BDAG gives an example without a preposition and BDF allows for the nominative to function as any other case in assimilation/attraction.

These references are now in a footnote in the current academia version.

Three strikes - you are out.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
It matters a great deal in the passage you have quoted because Wallace plainly says that he is giving his idiosyncratic definition of the nominative of exclamation. It is an example of his fondness for creating subcategories. You can find people who disagree with this approach generally, and I'm confident that you can find people who don't recognize the distinction he makes here.

Even if you don't recognize the distinction, the three points remain: (1) the expression lacks a verb, (2) the obvious emotion of the author is apparent and (3) we need an exclamation point in translation.

Start with this, don't worry about what to call this type of construction.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Speaking of the "John Milton" who stole my alias , I can't help but wonder how many other Trinitarians in decades and centuries past have done the same to the other sheep of Christ. It seems to be a modus operandi of theirs, in order to ferment confusion and mischief. For instance I suspect that the Polycarp who claimed to be the "disciple of the apostle John" in the so-called "Epistle of Polycarp" was similarly a pretender.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
You appear to forget why you went 0/2 and 0/3.
You keep making things up, and it just proves that you have no integrity.
BDAG gives an example without a preposition and BDF allows for the nominative to function as any other case in assimilation/attraction.

These references are now in a footnote in the current academia version.

Three strikes - you are out.

Here is your convoluted footnote:
https://www.academia.edu/44756956/The_Greek_Conjunction_%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9_Applied_to_the_Exegesis_of_John_20_28_A_Fresh_Grammatical_and_Contextual_analysis said:
Some might expect a preposition or the dative, but see BDAG πιστεύω 2.a.α - Ro 10:14b (οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν = τούτῳ [about equivalent to εἰς τοῦτον; cp. vs. 14a] οὗ οὐκ ἤκ.);

- Blass Debrunner Funk Greek Grammar (BDF, 1961), section 46 (4) Assimilation of the nom. sing. to other cases - Gives 1 Th 5:3 as an example where the nominative is assimilated to another case.

But above all, see Moulton: “We have still to gather some noteworthy points in the use of the cases, particularly the Nominative, on which nothing has been said hitherto. The case has a certain tendency to be residuary legatee of case-relations not obviously appropriated by other cases. We have its use as the name case, unaltered by the construction of the sentence in Rev 9:11: the fact that this has classical parallels (See Blass 85) is perhaps only accidental, for we have already seen that ungrammatical nominatives are prevalent in Rev (see p 9), and the general NT usage is certainly assimilation (Mt 1:21, Mk 3:16, Ac 27:1).”(Moulton J. , 1908).
From the start, your footnote about Romans 10:14 is intentionally misleading, because πιστεύω has a prepositional phrase as its object when it is first used. It is omitted at the second occurrence because it is not needed for the sense. See the underlined portions following (which I'm sure you can't read): "Πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς ὃν οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν; πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; πῶς δὲ ἀκούσωσιν χωρὶς κηρύσσοντος;
Besides this, you don't have the phrase "οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν" in John 20:28 which is what BDAG says stands in for τούτῳ/εἰς τοῦτον. There is no evidence for your position here.

Assimilation has nothing to do with John 20:28. You are simply pointing to grammars that talk about the use of nominatives for other cases in certain situations without understanding what those grammars are saying. You will not produce the citations for these sources in full for this reason.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
Even if you don't recognize the distinction, the three points remain: (1) the expression lacks a verb, (2) the obvious emotion of the author is apparent and (3) we need an exclamation point in translation.

Start with this, don't worry about what to call this type of construction.
If I don't acknowledge the distinction he is making, the characteristics he lists aren't relevant...
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Another reason why I think the Trinitarian reading at John 20:28 is Satanic is because the Sheep of Christ never directly address their Master as ὁ κύριός anywhere in the Bible.

There are about a 120 times in the GNT where Jesus is directly addressed as "lord" , and in every instance the vocative κύριε is used , never ὁ κύριός . So the apostle Thomas is not directly addressing Jesus Christ at John 20:28 .

Following are some examples --

John 4:11 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, οὔτε ἄντλημα ἔχεις καὶ τὸ φρέαρ ἐστὶν βαθύ· πόθεν οὖν ἔχεις τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ζῶν;

John 4:15 -- λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ γυνή Κύριε, δός μοι τοῦτο τὸ ὕδωρ, ἵνα μὴ διψῶ μηδὲ διέρχωμαι ἐνθάδε ἀντλεῖν.

John 4:19 -- λέγει αὐτῷ ἡ γυνή Κύριε, θεωρῶ ὅτι προφήτης εἶ σύ.

John 4:49 -- λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ βασιλικός Κύριε, κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ παιδίον μου.

John 5:7 -- ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ ἀσθενῶν Κύριε, ἄνθρωπον οὐκ ἔχω, ἵνα ὅταν ταραχθῇ τὸ ὕδωρ βάλῃ με εἰς τὴν κολυμβήθραν· ἐν ᾧ δὲ ἔρχομαι ἐγὼ, ἄλλος πρὸ ἐμοῦ καταβαίνει.

John 6:34 -- εἶπον οὖν πρὸς αὐτόν Κύριε, πάντοτε δὸς ἡμῖν τὸν ἄρτον τοῦτον.


John 6:68 -- ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, πρὸς τίνα ἀπελευσόμεθα; ῥήματα ζωῆς αἰωνίου ἔχεις·

John 8:11 -- ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Οὐδείς, κύριε. εἶπε δὲ αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Οὐδὲ ἐγώ σε κατακρίνω· πορεύου καὶ μηκέτι ἁμάρτανε.

John 9:36 -- ἀπεκρίθη ἐκεῖνος καὶ εἶπεν Καὶ τίς ἐστιν, Κύριε, ἵνα πιστεύσω εἰς αὐτόν;

John 9:38 -- ὁ δὲ ἔφη Πιστεύω, Κύριε· καὶ προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ.

John 11:3 -- ἀπέστειλαν οὖν αἱ ἀδελφαὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγουσαι Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ.

John 11:12 -- εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ Κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται, σωθήσεται.

John 11:21 -- εἶπεν οὖν ἡ Μάρθα πρὸς Ἰησοῦν Κύριε, εἰ ἦς ὧδε, οὐκ ἂν ἀπέθανεν ὁ ἀδελφός μου.

John 11:27 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε· ἐγὼ πεπίστευκα ὅτι σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἐρχόμενος.

John 11:32 -- ἡ οὖν Μαριὰμ ὡς ἦλθεν ὅπου ἦν Ἰησοῦς, ἰδοῦσα αὐτὸν ἔπεσεν αὐτοῦ πρὸς τοὺς πόδας, λέγουσα αὐτῷ Κύριε, εἰ ἦς ὧδε, οὐκ ἄν μου ἀπέθανεν ὁ ἀδελφός.

John 11:34 -- καὶ εἶπεν Ποῦ τεθείκατε αὐτόν; λέγουσιν αὐτῷ Κύριε, ἔρχου καὶ ἴδε.

John 11:39 -- λέγει ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἄρατε τὸν λίθον. λέγει αὐτῷ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τοῦ τετελευτηκότος Μάρθα Κύριε, ἤδη ὄζει· τεταρταῖος γάρ ἐστιν.

John 13:6 -- ἔρχεται οὖν πρὸς Σίμωνα Πέτρον· λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, σύ μου νίπτεις τοὺς πόδας;

John 13:9 -- λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, μὴ τοὺς πόδας μου μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰς χεῖρας καὶ τὴν κεφαλήν.

John 13:25 -- ἀναπεσὼν ἐκεῖνος οὕτως ἐπὶ τὸ στῆθος τοῦ Ἰησοῦ λέγει αὐτῷ Κύριε, τίς ἐστιν;

John 13:36 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, ποῦ ὑπάγεις; ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς Ὅπου ὑπάγω οὐ δύνασαί μοι νῦν ἀκολουθῆσαι, ἀκολουθήσεις δὲ ὕστερον.

John 13:37 -- λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος Κύριε, διὰ τί οὐ δύναμαί σοι ἀκολουθεῖν ἄρτι; τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω.

John 14:5 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Θωμᾶς Κύριε, οὐκ οἴδαμεν ποῦ ὑπάγεις· πῶς οἴδαμεν τὴν ὁδὸν;

John 14:8 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Φίλιππος Κύριε, δεῖξον ἡμῖν τὸν πατέρα, καὶ ἀρκεῖ ἡμῖν.

John 14:22 -- Λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰούδας, οὐχ ὁ Ἰσκαριώτης Κύριε, καὶ τί γέγονεν ὅτι ἡμῖν μέλλεις ἐμφανίζειν σεαυτὸν καὶ οὐχὶ τῷ κόσμῳ;

John 21:15 -- Ὅτε οὖν ἠρίστησαν, λέγει τῷ Σίμωνι Πέτρῳ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σίμων Ἰωάνου, ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων; λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Βόσκε τὰ ἀρνία μου.

John 21:16 -- λέγει αὐτῷ πάλιν δεύτερον Σίμων Ἰωάνου, ἀγαπᾷς με; λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί, Κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Ποίμαινε τὰ προβάτιά μου.

John 21;17 -- λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Σίμων Ἰωάνου, φιλεῖς με; ἐλυπήθη ὁ Πέτρος ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Φιλεῖς με; καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κύριε, πάντα σὺ οἶδας, σὺ γινώσκεις ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς Βόσκε τὰ προβάτιά μου.

John 21:20 -- ἐπιστραφεὶς ὁ Πέτρος βλέπει τὸν μαθητὴν ὃν ἠγάπα ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀκολουθοῦντα, ὃς καὶ ἀνέπεσεν ἐν τῷ δείπνῳ ἐπὶ τὸ στῆθος αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶπεν Κύριε, τίς ἐστιν ὁ παραδιδούς σε;

John 21:21 -- τοῦτον οὖν ἰδὼν ὁ Πέτρος λέγει τῷ Ἰησοῦ Κύριε, οὗτος δὲ τί;
etc.

Always Κύριε, never ὁ κύριός. How does apostle Thomas elsewhere directly address Jesus ? See for yourselves:

Λέγει αὐτῷ Θωμᾶς Κύριε, οὐκ οἴδαμεν ποῦ ὑπάγεις· πῶς οἴδαμεν τὴν ὁδὸν;
John 14:5


So don't listen to anyone who tells you that apostle Thomas was directly addressing Jesus at John 20:28 otherwise.
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I
You keep making things up, and it just proves that you have no integrity.


Here is your convoluted footnote:
From the start, your footnote about Romans 10:14 is intentionally misleading, because πιστεύω has a prepositional phrase as its object when it is first used. It is omitted at the second occurrence because it is not needed for the sense. See the underlined portions following (which I'm sure you can't read): "Πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς ὃν οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν; πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; πῶς δὲ ἀκούσωσιν χωρὶς κηρύσσοντος;
Besides this, you don't have the phrase "οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν" in John 20:28 which is what BDAG says stands in for τούτῳ/εἰς τοῦτον. There is no evidence for your position here.

Assimilation has nothing to do with John 20:28. You are simply pointing to grammars that talk about the use of nominatives for other cases in certain situations without understanding what those grammars are saying. You will not produce the citations for these sources in full for this reason.

I did notice the first use of the preposition in Romans but BDAG gives a different reason for Romans 10:14b.

I'll have to dock you another point.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
I


I did notice the first use of the preposition in Romans but BDAG gives a different reason for Romans 10:14b.

I'll have to dock you another point.
Then you intentionally misled others by citing it as an example of πιστεύω without a preposition. This construction depends upon the presence of the nearby preposition; the usage could not occur without it. There are two facts that are fatal to your position here: 1) πιστεύω does have a preposition as the first object and the second object can be omitted only because it is understood from the first. 2) BDAG doesn't even appear to claim that πιστεύω occurs without an object here. It proposes another object which does not occur in John 20:28.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Then you intentionally misled others by citing it as an example of πιστεύω without a preposition. This construction depends upon the presence of the nearby preposition; the usage could not occur without it. There are two facts that are fatal to your position here: 1) πιστεύω does have a preposition as the first object and the second object can be omitted only because it is understood from the first. 2) BDAG doesn't even appear to claim that πιστεύω occurs without an object here. It proposes another object which does not occur in John 20:28.

No, BDAG has a different explanation.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
It's in the footnote.
I'm about to leave for Holiday. I'll finish with you when I return in a few days.

Gryllus, if you are following this exchange at all, would you please provide the BDAG entry Roger alludes to but continually refuses to provide? I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance, whether you grant this boon or not.

Merry Christmas to all!
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I'm about to leave for Holiday. I'll finish with you when I return in a few days.

Gryllus, if you are following this exchange at all, would you please provide the BDAG entry Roger alludes to but continually refuses to provide? I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance, whether you grant this boon or not.

Merry Christmas to all!

Merry Saturnalia to you.

Christ (the real one) was probably born in April, not today, certainly not in December. Hope Santa Clause gives you all your desires.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Laetas omnibus vobis ferias, praesertim natalem diem Solis Invicti! (That's just to annoy RJM). However, here is the entire BDAG entry on πιστεύω. Because it's so long, and the forum restricts posts to 1,000 words or less, I have severely edited, but I can go back and supply a complete entry for a section if requested (anything ending in ... ).


πιστεύω (Trag.+) impf. ἐπίστευον; 1 aor. ἐπίστευσα; pf. πεπίστευκα; plpf. πεπιστεύκειν Ac 14:23 (on the omission of the augment s. B-D-F §66, 1; Mlt-H. 190). Pass.: fut. 3 pl. πιστευθήσονται Gen 42, 20; 1 aor. ἐπιστεύθην; pf. πεπίστευμαι (the word does not occur in Phlm, 2 Pt, 2 and 3J, Rv, MPol, or D. But it is a special favorite of J and 1J, where it is found 96 times and 9 times respectively; πίστις is not found in the gospel at all, and occurs in 1J only once, 5:4. Our lit. uses it quite predominantly in a transcendent sense, or at least w. transcendent coloring).


to consider someth. to be true and therefore worthy of one’s trust, believe


believe (in) someth., be convinced of someth., w. that which one believes (in) indicated

α. by acc. of thing...


β. by means of a ὅτι-clause believe that


γ. by the acc. and inf....


δ. by means of the dat. of thing give credence to, believe...

ε. w. prepositional expressions: εἰς Ro 4:18, if εἰς τὸ γενέσθαι αὐτόν here is dependent on ἐπίστευσεν. πιστεύειν εἰς τὴν μαρτυρίαν believe in the witness 1J 5:10c. ὁ Χριστιανισμὸς οὐκ εἰς Ἰουδαϊσμὸν ἐπίστευσεν the Christian way of life/Christianity did not commit itself to the Judean way/Judaism (s. Hdb. ad loc.) I Mg 10:3a; cp. b (Χριστιανισμόν, εἰς ὃν πᾶσα γλῶσσα πιστεύσασα). On πιστεύειν εἰς τὸ ὄνομά τινος s. 2aβ below. πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ believe in the gospel (so Ps 105:12 ἐπίστευσαν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις αὐτοῦ. Rather in the sense ‘put one’s trust in’ Sir 32:21 μὴ πιστεύσῃς ἐν ὁδῷ ἀπροσκόπῳ. See B-D-F §187, 6; Rob. 540. ALoisy, Les Évangiles synopt. I 1907, 430; 434; comm.) Mk 1:15 (Hofmann understands it as ‘on the basis of’, Wohlenberg ‘bei’; Lohmeyer is undecided; Dssm. and Mlt. 67f ‘in the sphere of’; s. p. 235). ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ οὐ πιστεύω IPhld 8:2 (s. Bihlmeyer ad loc.).—ἐπί τινι: πιστεύειν ἐπὶ πᾶσιν οἷς ἐλάλησαν οἱ προφῆται Lk 24:25; Ro 9:33 (Is 28:16).


ⓑ w. the pers. to whom one gives credence or whom one believes, in the dat....


ⓒ w. pers. and thing added π. τινί τι believe someone with regard to someth....

ⓓ abs. (in which case the context supplies the obj., etc....

believe = let oneself be influenced κατά τινος against someone Pol 6:1.


ⓕ πιστεύομαι I am believed, I enjoy confidence...


to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe (in), trust, w. implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted. In our lit. God and Christ are objects of this type of faith that relies on their power and nearness to help, in addition to being convinced that their revelations or disclosures are true. The obj. is

ⓐ given

α. in the dat....

β. w. εἰς (cp. Hippol., Elench. 6, 19, 7 W. οἱ εἰς τὸν Σίμωνα καὶ τὴν Ἑλένην πεπιστευκότες; Just., D. 35, 8 al.) God (BGU 874, 11 π. εἰς τὸν θεόν): J 12:44b; 14:1a (cp. ET 21, 1910, 53–57; 68–70; 138f); 1 Pt 1:21 v.l.=Pol 2:1.—Christ: Mt 18:6; Mk 9:42; J 2:11; 3:15 v.l., 16, 18a, 36; 4:39; 6:29, 35, 40, 47 v.l.; 7:5, 31, 38f, 48; 8:30; 9:35f; 10:42; 11:25, 26a, 45, 48; 12:11, 36 (εἰς τὸ φῶς), 37, 42, 44a, 46; 14:1b, 12; 16:9; 17:20; Ac 10:43; 14:23; 18:8 D; 19:4; Ro 10:14a; Gal 2:16; Phil 1:29; 1 Pt 1:8; 1J 5:10a; AcPlCor 2:31; Hs 8, 3, 2.—εἰς τὸ ὄνομα Ἰησοῦ (or αὐτοῦ, etc.) J 1:12; 2:23; 3:18c; 1J 5:13 (s. ὄνομα 1dβ and s. 2aα above, end). π. εἰς τὸν θάνατον αὐτοῦ ITr 2:1. π. εἰς τὸ αἷμα Χριστοῦ ISm 6:1.

γ. w. ἐπί and dat., of God Ac 11:17 D. Of Christ: Mt 27:42 v.l.; J 3:15 v.l.; Ro 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pt 2:6 (the last three Is 28:16); 1 Ti 1:16.

δ. w. ἐπί and acc. (Wsd 12:2; Just., D. 46, 1 al.) of God: Ac 16:34 D; Ro 4:5, 24; PtK 3 p. 15, 12. Of Christ: Mt 27:42; J 3:15 v.l.; Ac 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19.

ε. π. ἔν τινι believe in someone (Jer 12:6; Da 6:24 Theod.; Ps 77:22) is questionable in our lit.: in J 3:15 the best rdg. is ἐν αὐτῷ and is prob. to be construed w. ἔχῃ (in J πιστεύω usually takes the prep. εἰς when expressing the obj. of belief, as in 3:16); in Eph 1:13 both occurrences of ἐν ᾧ are prob. to be construed w. ἐσφραγίσθητε (=‘in connection with whom you have been sealed’ [cp. 4:30]); the acts of hearing and believing are coordinate, and πιστεύσαντες, along w. ἀκούσαντες, is used abs. (so REB; less clearly NRSV). But s. 1aε above: π. ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ Mk 1:15; IPhld 8:2.

ⓑ not expressed at all (the abs. πιστεύειν in a transcendent sense: ...


ⓒ A special kind of this faith is the confidence that God or Christ is in a position to help suppliants out of their distress, have confidence (some of the passages already mentioned might just as well be classified here) abs. ὡς ἐπίστευσας γενηθήτω σοι may it be done to you in accordance with the confidence you have....

entrust τινί τι someth. to someone ...

be confident about, a unique use found in ὃς μὲν πιστεύει φαγεῖν πάντα, someth. like the one is confident about eating anything Ro 14:2 ...

think/consider (possible), in Ro 14:2 perh. holds everything possible; cp. J 9:18 οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν they refused to entertain the possibility, and Ac 9:26. S. 4 above.—For lit. s. πίστις, end. DELG s.v. πείθομαι. M-M. EDNT. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 816–818). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
Laetas omnibus vobis ferias, praesertim natalem diem Solis Invicti! (That's just to annoy RJM). However, here is the entire BDAG entry on πιστεύω. Because it's so long, and the forum restricts posts to 1,000 words or less, I have severely edited, but I can go back and supply a complete entry for a section if requested (anything ending in ... ).


πιστεύω (Trag.+) impf. ἐπίστευον; 1 aor. ἐπίστευσα; pf. πεπίστευκα; plpf. πεπιστεύκειν Ac 14:23 (on the omission of the augment s. B-D-F §66, 1; Mlt-H. 190). Pass.: fut. 3 pl. πιστευθήσονται Gen 42, 20; 1 aor. ἐπιστεύθην; pf. πεπίστευμαι (the word does not occur in Phlm, 2 Pt, 2 and 3J, Rv, MPol, or D. But it is a special favorite of J and 1J, where it is found 96 times and 9 times respectively; πίστις is not found in the gospel at all, and occurs in 1J only once, 5:4. Our lit. uses it quite predominantly in a transcendent sense, or at least w. transcendent coloring).


to consider someth. to be true and therefore worthy of one’s trust, believe


believe (in) someth., be convinced of someth., w. that which one believes (in) indicated

α. by acc. of thing...


β. by means of a ὅτι-clause believe that


γ. by the acc. and inf....


δ. by means of the dat. of thing give credence to, believe...

ε. w. prepositional expressions: εἰς Ro 4:18, if εἰς τὸ γενέσθαι αὐτόν here is dependent on ἐπίστευσεν. πιστεύειν εἰς τὴν μαρτυρίαν believe in the witness 1J 5:10c. ὁ Χριστιανισμὸς οὐκ εἰς Ἰουδαϊσμὸν ἐπίστευσεν the Christian way of life/Christianity did not commit itself to the Judean way/Judaism (s. Hdb. ad loc.) I Mg 10:3a; cp. b (Χριστιανισμόν, εἰς ὃν πᾶσα γλῶσσα πιστεύσασα). On πιστεύειν εἰς τὸ ὄνομά τινος s. 2aβ below. πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ believe in the gospel (so Ps 105:12 ἐπίστευσαν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις αὐτοῦ. Rather in the sense ‘put one’s trust in’ Sir 32:21 μὴ πιστεύσῃς ἐν ὁδῷ ἀπροσκόπῳ. See B-D-F §187, 6; Rob. 540. ALoisy, Les Évangiles synopt. I 1907, 430; 434; comm.) Mk 1:15 (Hofmann understands it as ‘on the basis of’, Wohlenberg ‘bei’; Lohmeyer is undecided; Dssm. and Mlt. 67f ‘in the sphere of’; s. p. 235). ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ οὐ πιστεύω IPhld 8:2 (s. Bihlmeyer ad loc.).—ἐπί τινι: πιστεύειν ἐπὶ πᾶσιν οἷς ἐλάλησαν οἱ προφῆται Lk 24:25; Ro 9:33 (Is 28:16).


ⓑ w. the pers. to whom one gives credence or whom one believes, in the dat....


ⓒ w. pers. and thing added π. τινί τι believe someone with regard to someth....

ⓓ abs. (in which case the context supplies the obj., etc....

believe = let oneself be influenced κατά τινος against someone Pol 6:1.


ⓕ πιστεύομαι I am believed, I enjoy confidence...


to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe (in), trust, w. implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted. In our lit. God and Christ are objects of this type of faith that relies on their power and nearness to help, in addition to being convinced that their revelations or disclosures are true. The obj. is

ⓐ given

α. in the dat....

β. w. εἰς (cp. Hippol., Elench. 6, 19, 7 W. οἱ εἰς τὸν Σίμωνα καὶ τὴν Ἑλένην πεπιστευκότες; Just., D. 35, 8 al.) God (BGU 874, 11 π. εἰς τὸν θεόν): J 12:44b; 14:1a (cp. ET 21, 1910, 53–57; 68–70; 138f); 1 Pt 1:21 v.l.=Pol 2:1.—Christ: Mt 18:6; Mk 9:42; J 2:11; 3:15 v.l., 16, 18a, 36; 4:39; 6:29, 35, 40, 47 v.l.; 7:5, 31, 38f, 48; 8:30; 9:35f; 10:42; 11:25, 26a, 45, 48; 12:11, 36 (εἰς τὸ φῶς), 37, 42, 44a, 46; 14:1b, 12; 16:9; 17:20; Ac 10:43; 14:23; 18:8 D; 19:4; Ro 10:14a; Gal 2:16; Phil 1:29; 1 Pt 1:8; 1J 5:10a; AcPlCor 2:31; Hs 8, 3, 2.—εἰς τὸ ὄνομα Ἰησοῦ (or αὐτοῦ, etc.) J 1:12; 2:23; 3:18c; 1J 5:13 (s. ὄνομα 1dβ and s. 2aα above, end). π. εἰς τὸν θάνατον αὐτοῦ ITr 2:1. π. εἰς τὸ αἷμα Χριστοῦ ISm 6:1.

γ. w. ἐπί and dat., of God Ac 11:17 D. Of Christ: Mt 27:42 v.l.; J 3:15 v.l.; Ro 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pt 2:6 (the last three Is 28:16); 1 Ti 1:16.

δ. w. ἐπί and acc. (Wsd 12:2; Just., D. 46, 1 al.) of God: Ac 16:34 D; Ro 4:5, 24; PtK 3 p. 15, 12. Of Christ: Mt 27:42; J 3:15 v.l.; Ac 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19.

ε. π. ἔν τινι believe in someone (Jer 12:6; Da 6:24 Theod.; Ps 77:22) is questionable in our lit.: in J 3:15 the best rdg. is ἐν αὐτῷ and is prob. to be construed w. ἔχῃ (in J πιστεύω usually takes the prep. εἰς when expressing the obj. of belief, as in 3:16); in Eph 1:13 both occurrences of ἐν ᾧ are prob. to be construed w. ἐσφραγίσθητε (=‘in connection with whom you have been sealed’ [cp. 4:30]); the acts of hearing and believing are coordinate, and πιστεύσαντες, along w. ἀκούσαντες, is used abs. (so REB; less clearly NRSV). But s. 1aε above: π. ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ Mk 1:15; IPhld 8:2.

ⓑ not expressed at all (the abs. πιστεύειν in a transcendent sense: ...


ⓒ A special kind of this faith is the confidence that God or Christ is in a position to help suppliants out of their distress, have confidence (some of the passages already mentioned might just as well be classified here) abs. ὡς ἐπίστευσας γενηθήτω σοι may it be done to you in accordance with the confidence you have....

entrust τινί τι someth. to someone ...

be confident about, a unique use found in ὃς μὲν πιστεύει φαγεῖν πάντα, someth. like the one is confident about eating anything Ro 14:2 ...

think/consider (possible), in Ro 14:2 perh. holds everything possible; cp. J 9:18 οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν they refused to entertain the possibility, and Ac 9:26. S. 4 above.—For lit. s. πίστις, end. DELG s.v. πείθομαι. M-M. EDNT. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 816–818). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
I didn't think about the character limit getting in the way. Thanks again for going to all that trouble.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
It's in the footnote.
Your footnote reads, "Some might expect a preposition or the dative, but see BDAG πιστεύω 2.a.α." According to what Gryllus has kindly provided, the heading 2.a.α. illustrates the use of the dative as the object of πιστεύω (which is exactly what I have said). BDAG goes on to say (according to your footnote) that "οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν = τούτῳ." This suggests that the phrase "οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν" can stand in for the dative, but this phrase does not occur in John 20:28. The BDAG entry does not support your assertion about the translation of John 20:28.
 
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