The logical truth and reality of God.

Tercon

Member
God isn’t a religion. But rather God is reality, in that God is only knowable as being one and the same as believing the truth in reality; God = reality. And in whom and what all is made knowable; if not from the truth and reality, then all that exists is ONLY made knowable in one way and place. And outside of this ONE way and place the attributes and capacities of God that He assigns to His children are unknowable.

If consciousness is an awareness of the truth and reality, then consciousness must be our awareness of our existence in reality. So, the truth, reality and a believing mind must be what makes conscious beings aware.

And if it is self-refuting and impossible to suggest that the truth and reality doesn't or didn’t always exist, then the truth must have always existed in reality, because the otherwise is unknowable in reality.

And if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known, then a believing mind is necessary in order to make the truth known in reality.

And if the only way and place that the truth can be known and reality experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the only thing capable of making the truth known and reality experienced is a believing mind, because outside a believing mind neither the truth nor reality is knowable.

And if the only way and place that existence is knowable and experienceable is in and by a believing mind, then the only thing capable of knowing and experiencing existence or knowing of its own existence is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth known in reality is a believing mind, then the only thing capable of hosting the truth and reality is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of experiencing consciousness is a believing mind, then the only thing capable of experiencing consciousness is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth and reality known and consciousness and existence itself experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the capacity of a believing mind.

And if the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself is the capacity of a believing mind, then the only thing capable of hosting the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself is a believing mind.

And if the truth, reality and consciousness exist, then they must have a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist.

And if the ONLY thing that possesses this capacity in fulfilling this requirement of a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist is a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the product of a believing mind.

And if a believing mind is the only thing capable of hosting the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, then a believing mind must be the origin of the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, because outside of a believing mind no truth and reality is even knowable, and consciousness nor existence itself is even experienceable.

If the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can be known and known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can exist is in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place outside of a believing mind that this capacity of belief can occur.

Therefore, in whose believing mind did the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originate?

I say it is in God's mind that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originates. But, if you disagree, then please be so kind as to mention what you know of outside of a believing mind that has the capacity to make the truth known, reality experienced and consciousness and existence realized? Thanks

In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men, and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John, this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him; that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;' and out of his fullness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace; for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come; God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare. (John 1, YLT)
 

Whatsisface

Active member
God isn’t a religion. But rather God is reality, in that God is only knowable as being one and the same as believing the truth in reality; God = reality. And in whom and what all is made knowable; if not from the truth and reality, then all that exists is ONLY made knowable in one way and place. And outside of this ONE way and place the attributes and capacities of God that He assigns to His children are unknowable.

If consciousness is an awareness of the truth and reality, then consciousness must be our awareness of our existence in reality. So, the truth, reality and a believing mind must be what makes conscious beings aware.

And if it is self-refuting and impossible to suggest that the truth and reality doesn't or didn’t always exist, then the truth must have always existed in reality, because the otherwise is unknowable in reality.

And if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known, then a believing mind is necessary in order to make the truth known in reality.

And if the only way and place that the truth can be known and reality experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the only thing capable of making the truth known and reality experienced is a believing mind, because outside a believing mind neither the truth nor reality is knowable.

And if the only way and place that existence is knowable and experienceable is in and by a believing mind, then the only thing capable of knowing and experiencing existence or knowing of its own existence is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth known in reality is a believing mind, then the only thing capable of hosting the truth and reality is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of experiencing consciousness is a believing mind, then the only thing capable of experiencing consciousness is a believing mind.

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth and reality known and consciousness and existence itself experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the capacity of a believing mind.

And if the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself is the capacity of a believing mind, then the only thing capable of hosting the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself is a believing mind.

And if the truth, reality and consciousness exist, then they must have a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist.

And if the ONLY thing that possesses this capacity in fulfilling this requirement of a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist is a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the product of a believing mind.

And if a believing mind is the only thing capable of hosting the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, then a believing mind must be the origin of the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, because outside of a believing mind no truth and reality is even knowable, and consciousness nor existence itself is even experienceable.

If the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can be known and known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can exist is in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place outside of a believing mind that this capacity of belief can occur.

Therefore, in whose believing mind did the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originate?

I say it is in God's mind that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originates. But, if you disagree, then please be so kind as to mention what you know of outside of a believing mind that has the capacity to make the truth known, reality experienced and consciousness and existence realized? Thanks

In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men, and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John, this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him; that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;' and out of his fullness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace; for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come; God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare. (John 1, YLT)
You've made an argument for a God. Which God, and how do we know it's the right God?
 

Nouveau

Active member
God isn’t a religion.
Did anyone ever say God was a religion? That would be like saying Frodo is a book.

But rather God is reality...
Prove it. If you can then you'll be the first in history to ever do so.

And if it is self-refuting and impossible to suggest that the truth and reality doesn't or didn’t always exist...
Has anyone ever suggested that truth or reality once did not exist? Who are you arguing against with this?

And if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known, then a believing mind is necessary in order to make the truth known in reality.
Yes, belief is necessary for knowledge, but it is not alone sufficient.

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth known in reality is a believing mind, then the only thing capable of hosting the truth and reality is a believing mind.
Please explain what you mean by '"hosting".

And if the only way and place that is capable of making the truth and reality known and consciousness and existence itself experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the capacity of a believing mind.
This does not follow. That something is known or experienced in a mind makes that knowledge and experience a capacity of mind, but it does not make the thing known or experienced a capacity of mind. That conflates act and object.

And if the truth, reality and consciousness exist, then they must have a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist.

And if the ONLY thing that possesses this capacity in fulfilling this requirement of a way and place in order to exist and to also be made known to exist is a believing mind, then the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself must be the product of a believing mind.
Can you prove that a believing mind is the only place in which reality can exist? Why can't reality instead exist outside of minds as a mind-independent physical universe of time and space?

And if a believing mind is the only thing capable of hosting the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, then a believing mind must be the origin of the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself, because outside of a believing mind no truth and reality is even knowable, and consciousness nor existence itself is even experienceable.
You haven't explained "hosting"or why reality must originate in a mind.

If the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can be known and known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then the ONLY way and place that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself can exist is in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place outside of a believing mind that this capacity of belief can occur.
Why must reality exist in the same place that beliefs about it occur? You seem to be assuming your desired conclusion.

Therefore, in whose believing mind did the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originate?
How could truth and reality have originated if, according to your own initial premise, they have always existed?

I say it is in God's mind that the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself originates. But, if you disagree, then please be so kind as to mention what you know of outside of a believing mind that has the capacity to make the truth known, reality experienced and consciousness and existence realized? Thanks
I don't think that where something is known or experienced determines where it must exist or have originated from.
 

Tercon

Member
The point is, citing John isn't an argument. Why are some Christians so short sighted?

Strawman, as I didn't say that 1 John is the "argument", rather the "argument" is the argument and John 1 just supports it. That is why God is referred to as the “God of Hosts”, because the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself requires a believing mind in order to host its presence and realization.

In the Hebrew Bible, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").
 

Nouveau

Active member
Strawman, as I didn't say that 1 John is the "argument", rather the "argument" is the argument and John 1 just supports it. That is why God is referred to as the “God of Hosts”, because the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself requires a believing mind in order to host its presence and realization.

In the Hebrew Bible, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").
Those are two very different meanings of the term 'host'. So the actual Hebrew term is not used in a way that supports your argument.
 

Tercon

Member
Did anyone ever say God was a religion? That would be like saying Frodo is a book.
Strawman, as I didn't say nor suggest that God or "Frodo is a book", but in God being the incarnation of the truth and in reality the truth can be conveyed in and by a book, then the knowledge of God can be conveyed in a book.

Prove it. If you can then you'll be the first in history to ever do so.

I have, as if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then we are ONLY able to know of the truth and reality existence in and with a believing mind.

Has anyone ever suggested that truth or reality once did not exist? Who are you arguing against with this?

It's called an argument silly.

Yes, belief is necessary for knowledge, but it is not alone sufficient.

If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, but YOUR belief isn't sufficient to make the truth or reality known to you, then how is the truth and reality made known to you?

Please explain what you mean by '"hosting".
For the truth and reality to be known to exist and to be experienced a believing mind is required in order to make this possible. And because without a believing mind, knowing and experiencing the truth and reality is impossible, then this requirement for a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality experienceable denotes or implies the necessity of a believing mind in order to host it.

This does not follow. That something is known or experienced in a mind makes that knowledge and experience a capacity of mind, but it does not make the thing known or experienced a capacity of mind. That conflates act and object.

If that "thing" is any kind of "knowledge" it does. If not, then name just one thing that can be known or experienced outside or without the benefit of a believing mind.

Can you prove that a believing mind is the only place in which reality can exist? Why can't reality instead exist outside of minds as a mind-independent physical universe of time and space?
Sure, if YOU nor I can name NO other way or place outside of a believing mind that can make the truth and reality known to exist or IOW it is ONLY a believing mind that possesses the capacity to host the truth and reality. And because it is impossible to name another way or place outside of a believing mind that can make the truth and reality known to us, then "outside of" believing "minds" it is impossible to know of anything's existence; including "a mind-independent physical universe".
You haven't explained "hosting"or why reality must originate in a mind.

If it is only a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known and experienced in, then it is only in a believing mind that the truth and reality can be hosted, because in reality it is ONLY a mind that is capable of belief to begin with.

Why must reality exist in the same place that beliefs about it occur? You seem to be assuming your desired conclusion.
Because a mind and belief are both necessary in order to make the truth known in reality.
How could truth and reality have originated if, according to your own initial premise, they have always existed?

I am using the word originate or original in the following sense and definition:

The original (adjective), not secondary, derivative, or imitative, but original in placement or sequence. And being the first instance or source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is or can be made. Independent and creative in thought and action.

I don't think that where something is known or experienced determines where it must exist or have originated from.
Really?
So, if YOU don't think YOUR believing mind doesn't determine "where" the truth and reality "must exist or have originated from", then in what other way or place outside of your believing mind do you think "determines where it must exist or have originated from"?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You've made an argument for a God. Which God, and how do we know it's the right God?
Which God is YHVH.
Others are just demons.

And the only way to actually know if he's the right one is to come follow Jesus.

Or, if you want it to be Allah, attach bombs to yourself, go blow up some people who don't want to be Muslim.

Or, whatever others say, do those things and then you can know if you got it right or not.
 

Nouveau

Active member
Strawman, as I didn't say nor suggest that God or "Frodo is a book", but in God being the incarnation of the truth and in reality the truth can be conveyed in and by a book, then the knowledge of God can be conveyed in a book.
No, not a strawman. And you didn't answer my question.

I have, as if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then we are ONLY able to know of the truth and reality existence in and with a believing mind.
That doesn't prove God to be reality.

It's called an argument silly.
Why are you arguing for things no-one has ever denied?

If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, but YOUR belief isn't sufficient to make the truth or reality known to you, then how is the truth and reality made known to you?
It doesn't matter whose belief it is. Belief alone is never sufficient for knowledge.

For the truth and reality to be known to exist and to be experienced a believing mind is required in order to make this possible. And because without a believing mind, knowing and experiencing the truth and reality is impossible, then this requirement for a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality experienceable denotes or implies the necessity of a believing mind in order to host it.
I asked you to explain what you mean by 'hosting'. You've just used the word again without defining or explaining your use.

If that "thing" is any kind of "knowledge" it does. If not, then name just one thing that can be known or experienced outside or without the benefit of a believing mind.
Do you understand the difference between act and object? For instance, the difference between a chair and knowledge of that chair? The latter is a capacity of mind (knowledge), but the former (the chair) is not.

Sure, if YOU nor I can name NO other way or place outside of a believing mind that can make the truth and reality known to exist or IOW it is ONLY a believing mind that possesses the capacity to host the truth and reality. And because it is impossible to name another way or place outside of a believing mind that can make the truth and reality known to us, then "outside of" believing "minds" it is impossible to know of anything's existence; including "a mind-independent physical universe".
You're talking about knowledge. I asked about existence: Can you prove that a believing mind is the only place in which reality can EXIST? Why can't reality instead EXIST outside of minds as a mind-independent physical universe of time and space?

If it is only a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known and experienced in, then it is only in a believing mind that the truth and reality can be hosted, because in reality it is ONLY a mind that is capable of belief to begin with.
You still haven't explained what you mean by 'hosting' or why reality needs to be hosted in the first place.

Because a mind and belief are both necessary in order to make the truth known in reality.
That doesn't explain why you think reality must exist in the same place that beliefs about it occur.

I am using the word originate or original in the following sense and definition:

The original (adjective), not secondary, derivative, or imitative, but original in placement or sequence. And being the first instance or source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is or can be made. Independent and creative in thought and action.
If truth and reality have always existed then we don't need to account for their origin. And we don't need to locate them in the mind of God either.

Really? So, if YOU don't think YOUR believing mind doesn't determine "where" the truth and reality "must exist or have originated from", then in what other way or place outside of your believing mind do you think "determines where it must exist or have originated from"?
I don't think reality has an origin, and I think it exists as a mind-independent physical universe of space and time (MIPUST). Can you disprove this MIPUST hypothesis?
 

Tercon

Member
Those are two very different meanings of the term 'host'. So the actual Hebrew term is not used in a way that supports your argument.
No it isn't. And if you think it is, then you have misinterpreted what I said. As if a mind is the only thing capable of hosting the truth and reality. And I know it isn't mine nor your mind that is the original mind that the truth and reality always existed in, then it is must have been God's mind that always hosted the truth and reality. But if you know of some other way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known and experienced, then please let me know.
 

Nouveau

Active member
No it isn't.
Do you understand what a homonym is?


host (1)
1. a person who receives or entertains guests at home or elsewhere: the host at a theater party.
2. a master of ceremonies, moderator, or interviewer for a television or radio program.
3. a person, place, company, or the like, that provides services, resources, etc., as for a convention or sporting event: Our city would like to serve as host for the next Winter Olympics.
4. the landlord of an inn.
5. a living animal or plant from which a parasite obtains nutrition.

host (2)
1. a multitude or great number of persons or things: a host of details.
2. an army.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Strawman, as I didn't say that 1 John is the "argument", rather the "argument" is the argument and John 1 just supports it. That is why God is referred to as the “God of Hosts”, because the truth, reality, consciousness and existence itself requires a believing mind in order to host its presence and realization.

In the Hebrew Bible, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").
Strawman, as i didn't say that you said that John 1 was the argument. John 1 doesn't show that your particular God is the God your argument hopes to establish.

So, we are left with an argument that tries to establish a God, but doesn't argue for what particular God it might refer to.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Which God is YHVH.
Others are just demons.
So you say.

And the only way to actually know if he's the right one is to come follow Jesus.

How does following Jesus show you that?

Here is a video titled,

Describing the presence & guiding of the Holy Spirit to TRUTH,​


This sounds very much like you.
 

Tercon

Member
Strawman, as i didn't say that you said that John 1 was the argument. John 1 doesn't show that your particular God is the God your argument hopes to establish.

So, we are left with an argument that tries to establish a God, but doesn't argue for what particular God it might refer to.

Actually it is an argument to demonstrate that the truth and reality can ONLY be known to exist in a by a believing mind. And that there is no other way or place that can be known to exist in reality outside believing mind. And that believing mind belongs to God.
 

Tercon

Member
Do you understand what a homonym is?


host (1)
1. a person who receives or entertains guests at home or elsewhere: the host at a theater party.
2. a master of ceremonies, moderator, or interviewer for a television or radio program.
3. a person, place, company, or the like, that provides services, resources, etc., as for a convention or sporting event: Our city would like to serve as host for the next Winter Olympics.
4. the landlord of an inn.
5. a living animal or plant from which a parasite obtains nutrition.

host (2)
1. a multitude or great number of persons or things: a host of details.
2. an army.
Yes. And your point is?
 

Tercon

Member
I am still waiting for someone to tell us of another way or place outside to a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist. Is there anyone out there that can answer this question?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So you say.
No, actually Deuteronomy 32:17 says that all the other gods are demons.
As does 1 Corinthians 10:20 , Leviticus 17:7, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalms 106:37.
So.... didn't make this up at all. This idea has a millennia's old basis for it.


How does following Jesus show you that?
Through reading the bible, and then applying what you read in your life.
Exactly as is written in Matthew 7:24-27, Luke 6:47-49, James 1:21-27
So.... you can either come and learn the truth, or continue to argue against it from the place of ignorance.

Here is a video titled,

Describing the presence & guiding of the Holy Spirit to TRUTH,​


This sounds very much like you.
Hmm..... interesting, and curious.....

Actually, there is a major difference.
I have the biblical narrative to explain what my experiences are.
And as Paul told the Corinthians--- you can't understand it, because it's spiritually understood.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

So, I'd apologize that you're not willing to understand, and learn, but that's a choice you need to make.

Any time you actually want to know, and understand, come follow Jesus.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Actually it is an argument to demonstrate that the truth and reality can ONLY be known to exist in a by a believing mind. And that there is no other way or place that can be known to exist in reality outside believing mind. And that believing mind belongs to God.
Yes, that's what the argument hopes to do, but the argument doesn't argue for a particular God. It only argues for A God.

You might be right with the argument establishing a God, but you haven't said how you know what particular God it is. Indeed, it might be a God no one's ever heard of.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
No, actually Deuteronomy 32:17 says that all the other gods are demons.
As does 1 Corinthians 10:20 , Leviticus 17:7, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalms 106:37.
So.... didn't make this up at all. This idea has a millennia's old basis for it.

So the Bible says, but so what?

Through reading the bible, and then applying what you read in your life.
Exactly as is written in Matthew 7:24-27, Luke 6:47-49, James 1:21-27
So.... you can either come and learn the truth, or continue to argue against it from the place of ignorance.
What did you you read and apply and how did this show you God exists?

Hmm..... interesting, and curious.....

Actually, there is a major difference.
I have the biblical narrative to explain what my experiences are.
And as Paul told the Corinthians--- you can't understand it, because it's spiritually understood.
That's exactly what the man in the video said about his experience of the holy spirit, but within Hinduism. He will also have Hindu narratives to explain what his experiences are.

So, I'd apologize that you're not willing to understand, and learn, but that's a choice you need to make.

Any time you actually want to know, and understand, come follow Jesus.
Sorry, but you give yourself away. You chose to believe, rather than base your beliefs on rational evidence. I couldn't be so irrational.
 
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