The logical truth and reality of God.

Tercon

Active member
If the truth, logic and reality always existed, because it is a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction to suggest otherwise, then how or where could or can the truth, logic and reality have always been known to exist?
 

Whatsisface

Active member
If the truth, logic and reality always existed, because it is a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction to suggest otherwise, then how or where could or can the truth, logic and reality have always been known to exist?
Are truth and logic absolute?
 

Ficciones

Active member
If the truth, logic and reality always existed, because it is a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction to suggest otherwise, then how or where could or can the truth, logic and reality have always been known to exist?

Necessary truths, such as the laws of logic, don't need to be known in order to be what they are. That would make them contingent, perhaps even subjective. Minds don't invent them, they discover them.
 

Tercon

Active member
Are truth and logic absolute?
Yes
Necessary truths, such as the laws of logic, don't need to be known in order to be what they are.
Non Sequitur, as how do you know the "laws of logic" are "necessary truths", if YOU cannot even know them without a belief in their reality? Remember belief is necessary in order to make all truth known to us, including the "laws of logic", "necessary truths" and logical absolutes.
how do you know
That would make them contingent, perhaps even subjective. Minds don't invent them, they discover them.
Your strawman "would make them contingent".
But if the ONLY way and place that these laws can be known or experienced is in and by a believing mind, then this would imply these laws like the truth and reality itself are the product of God's mind, as we know they can't not exist. Therefore, they must exist in the only way and place that they can be known to exist in reality and that's in and by Someone's believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
How do you know "MIPUST" is reality, when you do not and cannot know anything about the truth and reality without a believing mind?
I use my mind to know that MIPUST is a reality. Have you tried using your mind to do the same?
 

Ficciones

Active member
these laws like the truth and reality itself are the product of God's mind

That would make them contingent, not necessary; conditional, not absolute.

It's like you don't understand what these words mean and are just making popcorn strings with them.
 

Tercon

Active member
That would make them contingent, not necessary; conditional, not absolute.
What "would make them contingent, not necessary; conditional, not absolute"?
It's like you don't understand what these words mean and are just making popcorn strings with them.
No, it's just that you don't have what it takes to face the truth and reality. Stop your strawmanning and deal with what's being said to you, instead of pretending I "don't understand what these words mean" you bluff.
 

Tercon

Active member
I use my mind to know that MIPUST is a reality.
huh, so "MIPUST" is dependent on a believing mind in order to exist in reality? I thought you said that YOUR "MIPUST" wasn't mind dependent for its existence?
Have you tried using your mind to do the same?
Why don't you try something other than your unbelief in order to make the truth and reality known to you silly.
 

Tercon

Active member
Nope. Not what I said at all. Try again.
Well you know it is a little hard to put your finger on things that are said to not depend on a mind for their existence. Maybe you should read up on the latest QM experimenting, because everything in QM indicates that a mind (observer or measurer) is necessary for wave collapse function to occur.
 

Ficciones

Active member
Well you know it is a little hard to put your finger on things that are said to not depend on a mind for their existence. Maybe you should read up on the latest QM experimenting, because everything in QM indicates that a mind (observer or measurer) is necessary for wave collapse function to occur.
did someone else just take the wheel here
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Well you know it is a little hard to put your finger on things that are said to not depend on a mind for their existence. Maybe you should read up on the latest QM experimenting, because everything in QM indicates that a mind (observer or measurer) is necessary for wave collapse function to occur.
No it doesn't. And you're trying to change the subject. MIPUST is still the answer to your OP question.
 

Tercon

Active member
No it doesn't. And you're trying to change the subject. MIPUST is still the answer to your OP question.
Evasion.
Have you ever seen or heard of a being or reality that didn't require a believing mind in order to be known to exist? If so, then please say what it is and how it functions without a believing mind.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Well you know it is a little hard to put your finger on things that are said to not depend on a mind for their existence. Maybe you should read up on the latest QM experimenting, because everything in QM indicates that a mind (observer or measurer) is necessary for wave collapse function to occur.
But then God being omniscient would be an observer of all the atoms and electrons in the universe, meaning all the wave functions would have collapsed already, which we know they haven't.
 

Tercon

Active member
Then they would pertain no matter the worldview, else they wouldn't be absolute. Including one without God.
If absolutes exist in reality or are the product of reality, then they too require and imply some means or place in order to be known to exist. And the only way and place I know of that does and can fulfill this capacity is a believing mind.
But, if you know of some other way or place OUTSIDE of a believing mind that can fulfill this capacity, please say what it is and how it is known to work.
 
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