The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Illogical nonsense, as belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone, because without belief or a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable to you.
Utterly wrong. You can't rightly believe something true before you understand it's true. It's the understanding not the belief that makes it known.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So what actual evidence do you have that that god exists if he doesn't believe I exist because he doesn't have a believing mind?

The logical truth and reality exists, because to suggest otherwise is self-contradictory. And because it can ONLY be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, then the logical truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind. And since without a believing mind nothing can be known to exist or occur; then a believing mind must be the first principle and First Cause, because a believing mind is the cause that makes everything else that exists and occur knowable.
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Utterly wrong. You can't rightly believe something true before you understand it's true. It's the understanding not the belief that makes it known.

Another Non Sequitur. How can you "understand" anything without first believing it exists or "it's true" that it exists? And you can't understand anything without believing it exists in reality.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
Another Non Sequitur. How can you "understand" anything without first believing it exists or "it's true" that it exists? And you can't understand anything without believing it exists in reality.
Non Sequitur.

If I'm learning for the first time about the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun, when I have no idea this is the case, I don't believe the Earth orbits the Sun before I'm told it does and how we know it does. The understanding that this is so has to happen before I can believe it.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Non Sequitur.

If I'm learning for the first time about the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun, when I have no idea this is the case, I don't believe the Earth orbits the Sun before I'm told it does and how we know it does. The understanding that this is so has to happen before I can believe it.

Strawman and non sequitur. As if you already believe the earth and the sun exist (a belief), then this is what makes you believe and know that "the Earth orbits the Sun" too, because if you disbelieved the earth and the sun exist, then how could you believe that "the Earth orbits the Sun" as well?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Strawman and non sequitur. As if you already believe the earth and the sun exist (a belief), then this is what makes you believe and know that "the Earth orbits the Sun" too, because if you disbelieved the earth and the sun exist, then how could you believe that "the Earth orbits the Sun" as well?
From what you've said, it doesn't follow that you would know the Earth orbits the sun. In fact at one time, Biblical times actually, people thought, believed, the sun orbited the earth. That was their belief, but it that belief didn't make it true.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
From what you've said, it doesn't follow that you would know the Earth orbits the sun.

Can you know or would you know "the Earth orbits the sun" if you disbelieved the earth and sun exists? No! As it is the belief that the earth and sun exists that makes it possible to believe "the Earth orbits the sun" silly.

In fact at one time, Biblical times actually, people thought, believed, the sun orbited the earth. That was their belief, but it that belief didn't make it true.

Strawman and projection. You are conflating belief and unbelief, because I do not believe "the sun orbited the earth" and I am still believe the Bible.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Can you know or would you know "the Earth orbits the sun" if you disbelieved the earth and sun exists? No! As it is the belief that the earth and sun exists that makes it possible to believe "the Earth orbits the sun" silly.
Strawman. You can't believe the Earth exists until you are told it does. Same problem.
Strawman and projection. You are conflating belief and unbelief, because I do not believe "the sun orbited the earth" and I am still believe the Bible.
Huh?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Strawman. You can't believe the Earth exists until you are told it does. Same problem.

Strawman and non sequitur. You cannot know "Earth exists until you" believe it exists.

Huh? In fact at one time, Biblical times actually, people thought, believed, the sun orbited the earth. That was their belief, but it that belief didn't make it true.

Read for comprehension. Hint: the "people" you are referring to are believers and not unbelievers. And I am a believer as well, but I do not believe "the sun orbited the earth". So this "believed" you are referring to doesn't apply to me.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Strawman and non sequitur. You cannot know "Earth exists until you" believe it exists.
Strawman, non sequitur and circular. You can't believe it exists before you know about it.
Read for comprehension. Hint: the "people" you are referring to are believers and not unbelievers. And I am a believer as well, but I do not believe "the sun orbited the earth". So this "believed" you are referring to doesn't apply to me.
Read for comprehension, people used to believe the Sun orbited the Earth. Does that mean it did?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Non sequitur and circular; as you can't know anything about what you disbelieve to exist silly.
Just nonsense. How can you disbelieve something to exist that you don't know about?
Read for comprehension. Irrelevant and inapplicable to me, because I am NOT one of them.
You're missing the point. People believed the earth was flat, but that didn't make it so. Doesn't matter what you believe.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Just nonsense. How can you disbelieve something to exist that you don't know about?

How can you know anything true about something that you disbelieve to exist in reality silly?

You're missing the point. People believed the earth was flat, but that didn't make it so. Doesn't matter what you believe.

Strawman. I don't. Do you you? If not, then how is that relevant or applicable to my argument?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You're missing the point. If you don't know about something, you neither believe nor disbelieve.

"If you don't know about something", then you must not believe or disbelieve it. As if belief is necessary for knowledge, then belief must occur before knowledge of something's occurrence can occur.
That's why belief must occur before any knowledge of the truth and reality can occur.

Because you say that belief is what makes something real.

Actually to be more specific; a believing mind gives an occurrence a way and place to occur. That's why QM demonstrates that observation and measurement is necessary and entailed in all occurrences, including wave function collapse and entanglement.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
"If you don't know about something", then you must not believe or disbelieve it.
As if belief is necessary for knowledge, then belief must occur before knowledge of something's occurrence can occur.
That's why belief must occur before any knowledge of the truth and reality can occur.



Actually to be more specific; a believing mind gives an occurrence a way and place to occur. That's why QM demonstrates that observation and measurement is necessary and entailed in all occurrences, including wave function collapse and entanglement.
Rubbish. No one believes what you say. Not Christian nor atheist.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
If there was a contest for the greatest number of rhetorical failures here in the forums, Tercon would be giving Authentic Nouveau a run for his money.

Both users have almost no credibility - although if you ignore 95% of the rest of the things he says, a few Christians will occasionally agree with AN. I'm not even sure Tercon has that...
 

Tercon

Well-known member
If there was a contest for the greatest number of rhetorical failures here in the forums, Tercon would be giving Authentic Nouveau a run for his money.

Both users have almost no credibility - although if you ignore 95% of the rest of the things he says, a few Christians will occasionally agree with AN. I'm not even sure Tercon has that...

Despite you never having shown what I have said to be false or illogical, then you are either extremely ignorant or a outright liar. And I will even let you choose which one you want to be known as?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Illogical nonsense, as belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone, because without belief or a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable to you.
Tiburon said belief is not sufficient. You have responded by saying that belief is necessary. Tiburon did not say belief isn't necessary - he said it was not sufficient. Do you see your disconnect here, or do you still not understand the difference?
 
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