The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

Tercon

Well-known member
Without perception you have nothing to base your belief or knowledge on. Belief requires incoming information. That requires perception.

Without belief you have nothing to make perception mean anything. Also, if you are to understand and know anything belief is necessary, and that includes physical occurrences. All occurrences require and entail a way and mode by which to occur, and a believing mind is the only way and mode that can make everything occur, because outside of a believing mind nothing can be known to occur.

Belief doesn't 'make' things true.

Belief makes things known to be true and occur though.

All of them. Every belief I have is insufficient to make its truthfulness and reality known. They all require more than just belief.

Name one then and explain why your belief was insufficient to make its truthfulness and reality known to you?
 

Tiburon

Member
Without belief you have nothing to make perception mean anything. Also, if you are to understand and know anything belief is necessary, and that includes physical occurrences. All occurrences require and entail a way and mode by which to occur, and a believing mind is the only way and mode that can make everything occur, because outside of a believing mind nothing can be known to occur.



Belief makes things known to be true and occur though.



Name one then and explain why your belief was insufficient to make its truthfulness and reality known to you?
And without perception you have nothing to make belief mean anything.
What exactly is belief?

"Belief makes things known to be true and occur though." So what? That isn't the question. The question is whether belief makes things true.

I believe I can eat a 500g steak but I have to actually eat it to make this truthfulness and reality known to me?
Belief alone is not sufficient.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
And without perception you have nothing to make belief mean anything.

Perception has no meaning without belief. Like QM is meaningless without a believing mind in order for WFC and entanglement to occur.

What exactly is belief?

Belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known.

"Belief makes things known to be true and occur though." So what? That isn't the question. The question is whether belief makes things true.

What is "true" without belief in order to make its truth known to you?

I believe I can eat a 500g steak but I have to actually eat it to make this truthfulness and reality known to me?
Belief alone is not sufficient.

Strawman. Have you ever eaten "a 500g steak"?
 

Tiburon

Member
Perception has no meaning without belief. Like QM is meaningless without a believing mind in order for WFC and entanglement to occur.



Belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known.



What is "true" without belief in order to make its truth known to you?



Strawman. Have you ever eaten "a 500g steak"?
This has been shown not to be the case.
That doesn't tell me what belief is. You're just telling me what it does.
Again you are turning it around and coming from known truth to belief not from belief to truth. How do you get from believing something is true to actually knowing it is true?
Yes.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This has been shown not to be the case.

Show me how you know anything can occur without "observation", "measurement" or a conscious mind to occur with and in.

That doesn't tell me what belief is. You're just telling me what it does.

If belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone including you and belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known, then there is no better description of belief than the truth in what it is and what it does.

Again you are turning it around and coming from known truth to belief not from belief to truth. How do you get from believing something is true to actually knowing it is true?

If belief must necessarily occur before the truth and reality is known to you, then belief must come first in order to make the truth and reality known to you. Also, our physical senses don't produce any information or interpretation, rather it is what we believe about what we what we are experiencing that causes knowledge.


So you already believe that you can or did eat a 500g steak.
 

Tiburon

Member
Show me how you know anything can occur without "observation", "measurement" or a conscious mind to occur with and in.



If belief is what makes the truth and reality known to everyone including you and belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known, then there is no better description of belief than the truth in what it is and what it does.



If belief must necessarily occur before the truth and reality is known to you, then belief must come first in order to make the truth and reality known to you. Also, our physical senses don't produce any information or interpretation, rather it is what we believe about what we what we are experiencing that causes knowledge.



So you already believe that you can or did eat a 500g steak.
Again you are talking about knowing something happened as opposed to it happening without being known.
Do you think nothing can happen if it isn't known to happen? If I come across a tree laying on the ground does the fact that I didn't see it fall mean that it didn't?

Babbling. That makes no sense.
Can you know the truth and reality of something without belief? No. Can you have a belief without knowing the truth and reality of that belief? Yes.

Our senses provide the raw data for our minds to work upon. We can't construct a framework of knowledge without that input.

I believed I could eat a 500g steak without knowing I could. It was only after I ate it that I knew I could. I could have tried and failed to eat the steak. I couldn't know until I had some experience to back up my belief.
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Again you are talking about knowing something happened as opposed to it happening without being known.

Evasion and strawman. Actually I am talking about how and why the truth and reality is known.

Show me how you know anything can occur without "observation", "measurement" or a conscious mind to occur with and in?

Do you think nothing can happen if it isn't known to happen? If I come across a tree laying on the ground does the fact that I didn't see it fall mean that it didn't?

If no-one including you can't know anything without a believing mind making it "known to happen", then the truth, reality and its occurrences must be the product of a believing mind, because without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur.

Babbling. That makes no sense.

Sorry if the truth sounds like babbling to you. Maybe if you spent more time looking for the truth rather than avoiding it you may come to appreciate it for what it is.

Can you know the truth and reality of something without belief? No.

If you cannot "know the truth and reality of something without belief", then you still have to have belief 100% of the time without exception in order for the truth and reality to be known to you.

Can you have a belief without knowing the truth and reality of that belief? Yes.

Strawman. That's a "false belief" that you are referring to and denoting above and not a belief in reality.

Our senses provide the raw data for our minds to work upon. We can't construct a framework of knowledge without that input.

Irrelevant. As you can't know anything including anything physical without a belief in reality. And QM modeling

I believed I could eat a 500g steak without knowing I could. It was only after I ate it that I knew I could. I could have tried and failed to eat the steak. I couldn't know until I had some experience to back up my belief.

In reality the reason you know you ate a 500g steak is because you believe you ate a 500g steak, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you.
 

Tiburon

Member
Evasion and strawman. Actually I am talking about how and why the truth and reality is known.

Show me how you know anything can occur without "observation", "measurement" or a conscious mind to occur with and in?



If no-one including you can't know anything without a believing mind making it "known to happen", then the truth, reality and its occurrences must be the product of a believing mind, because without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur.



Sorry if the truth sounds like babbling to you. Maybe if you spent more time looking for the truth rather than avoiding it you may come to appreciate it for what it is.



If you cannot "know the truth and reality of something without belief", then you still have to have belief 100% of the time without exception in order for the truth and reality to be known to you.



Strawman. That's a "false belief" that you are referring to and denoting above and not a belief in reality.



Irrelevant. As you can't know anything including anything physical without a belief in reality. And QM modeling



In reality the reason you know you ate a 500g steak is because you believe you ate a 500g steak, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you.
"without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur." Does that mean nothing can occur independent of our knowing?
'Knowledge' of the truth, reality and its occurrences must be the product of a believing mind.
Does reality require being known?
It is a belief in reality. False beliefs are still beliefs.
I know I ate a 500g steak because I actually ate a 500g steak.
As the saying goes "the proof is in the pudding" not "the proof is in believing in the pudding.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
"without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur." Does that mean nothing can occur independent of our knowing?

If it is the case that 'without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur', then that means nothing can be known to "occur independent of our" believing mind silly.

Knowledge' of the truth, reality and its occurrences must be the product of a believing mind.
Does reality require being known?

If all knowledge of the truth, reality and its occurrences is unknowable without a believing mind, then nothing is knowable without a believing mind silly.

It is a belief in reality. False beliefs are still beliefs.

Strawman and projection. That's why you are ignorant of how and why the truth and reality is known, as you falsely believe by falsely conflating "false beliefs" and "a belief in reality". And your statement that "false beliefs are still beliefs" proves it, because YOUR "false beliefs are" not "beliefs in reality" are they?

I know I ate a 500g steak because I actually ate a 500g steak.
As the saying goes "the proof is in the pudding" not "the proof is in believing in the pudding.

So, do you believe or falsely believe you "ate a 500g steak"?
 

Tiburon

Member
If it is the case that 'without a believing mind nothing can be known to occur', then that means nothing can be known to "occur independent of our" believing mind silly.



If all knowledge of the truth, reality and its occurrences is unknowable without a believing mind, then nothing is knowable without a believing mind silly.



Strawman and projection. That's why you are ignorant of how and why the truth and reality is known, as you falsely believe by falsely conflating "false beliefs" and "a belief in reality". And your statement that "false beliefs are still beliefs" proves it, because YOUR "false beliefs are" not "beliefs in reality" are they?



So, do you believe or falsely believe you "ate a 500g steak"?
So nothing exists without a believing mind?
A belief is a belief. Whether it turns out to be true or not doesn't matter. How do you know if a belief is a 'belief in reality'?
My false beliefs are still beliefs.
I know I ate a 500g steak.
When you believe, what is it you are believing?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So nothing exists without a believing mind?

Nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind. And if nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind, then the truth and reality must exist in and with a believing mind.

A belief is a belief. Whether it turns out to be true or not doesn't matter.

"A belief is a belief", but a "false belief" isn't a belief in reality is it.

How do you know if a belief is a 'belief in reality'?

Its truth informs us of reality.

My false beliefs are still beliefs.

No, your "false beliefs" are like your unbelief (atheism) in regards to making the truth and reality known to you.

Is it "false beliefs" or beliefs in reality that inform us of the truth?

I know I ate a 500g steak.

The ONLY reason YOU "know" YOU "ate a 500g steak" is because you believe you "ate a 500g steak".

When you believe, what is it you are believing?

The truth. And the truth is only known to occur in and with a believing mind.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind. And if nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind, then the truth and reality must exist in and with a believing mind. "A belief is a belief", but a "false belief" isn't a belief in reality is it. Its truth informs us of reality. No, your "false beliefs" are like your unbelief (atheism) in regards to making the truth and reality known to you. Is it "false beliefs" or beliefs in reality that inform us of the truth? The ONLY reason YOU "know" YOU "ate a 500g steak" is because you believe you "ate a 500g steak". The truth. And the truth is only known to occur in and with a believing mind.
IOW gods and fairies don't exist unless you believe they exist.
 
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Whateverman

Well-known member
Object permanence appears to give this thread's author some difficulty, even though he claims to be old enough to use the web and post to the discussion forums on it. Here's a rough explanation:

Object permanence describes a child's ability to know that objects continue to exist even though they can no longer be seen or heard. If you have ever played a game of "peek-a-boo" with a very young child, then you probably understand how this works.

When an object is hidden from sight, infants under a certain age often become upset that the item has vanished. This is because they are too young to understand that the object continues to exist even though it cannot be seen.​

This thread's author seems to think that things can't exist without something to sense their existence.

Maybe the DSM needs some updating?
 

Tiburon

Member
Nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind. And if nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind, then the truth and reality must exist in and with a believing mind.



"A belief is a belief", but a "false belief" isn't a belief in reality is it.



Its truth informs us of reality.



No, your "false beliefs" are like your unbelief (atheism) in regards to making the truth and reality known to you.

Is it "false beliefs" or beliefs in reality that inform us of the truth?



The ONLY reason YOU "know" YOU "ate a 500g steak" is because you believe you "ate a 500g steak".



The truth. And the truth is only known to occur in and with a believing mind.
That wasn't what I asked. I asked "So nothing exists without a believing mind?"
I didn't ask about what is known.

Do you mean a belief regarding something real? In reality I have beliefs which may or may not be true.

No. Reality informs us of the truth. Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

Beliefs are beliefs whether they turn out to be true or not. Reality informs out beliefs and provides evidence of their truth.

The only reason I know I ate a steak is because I ate it. If I hadn't eaten the steak I wouldn't 'know' that I could. I would only believe that I could.
Belief alone isn't knowledge.
The truth is only known to be 'recognised' in and with a believing mind. A believing mind doesn't make something true.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
IOW gods and fairies don't exist unless you believe they exist.

Nothing can be known to exist or occur without first believing it exists or occurred silly.

The only thing true about God's believing mind is that there's no credible evidence it exists.

Sure there is. And if the the truth and reality exist. And if the truth and reality cannot not exist. And the only way and place that anything can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
And the only way and place that anything can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind.
This is the same claim you've been repeating for a decade now. Do you have any idea yet why no-one finds it convincing? Have you paid any attention at all to the reasons people have given you for disagreeing with it?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Object permanence appears to give this thread's author some difficulty, even though he claims to be old enough to use the web and post to the discussion forums on it. Here's a rough explanation:

Object permanence describes a child's ability to know that objects continue to exist even though they can no longer be seen or heard. If you have ever played a game of "peek-a-boo" with a very young child, then you probably understand how this works.​

When an object is hidden from sight, infants under a certain age often become upset that the item has vanished. This is because they are too young to understand that the object continues to exist even though it cannot be seen.​

Children have to learn how to believe before the truth and reality is knowable to them.

This thread's author seems to think that things can't exist without something to sense their existence.

Maybe the DSM needs some updating?

Sorry but I cannot help it if your minds doesn't work properly. Some people learn how to believe and the truth and reality and the truth and reality becomes known to them.
But some others stay in their infantile unbelieving state forever. In the Bible these people are referred to as "lost".
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This is the same claim you've been repeating for a decade now. Do you have any idea yet why no-one finds it convincing? Have you paid any attention at all to the reasons people have given you for disagreeing with it?

I have not seen one reason to disbelieve that a believing mind is necessarily entailed for everything's existence and occurrence. And QM bears this out. Nor have I seen anyone including you that can show otherwise.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Nothing can be known to exist or occur without first believing it exists or occurred silly.
When scientists are working on the frontiers of knowledge, they will often discover things that they and no one else has thought about before. They can't believe something no ones ever thought about before, they believe it after they realise it. Belief comes second, after the penny drops.
Sure there is. And if the the truth and reality exist. And if the truth and reality cannot not exist. And the only way and place that anything can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the product of a believing mind.
This is an assertion, it needs support.
 
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