The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

[docphin5]

The truth and reality of God isn't hidden from us, rather the unbeliever hides from Him, because knowing Him requires change and humans don't like change.



Our god is whatever we hold dearest. I believe in the truth and reality of God, because the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to occur is in and with a believing mind.



A pure mind is a believing mind, because without belief nothing is knowable.

The way I understand the Pure Mind is a state of consciousness that sees the Good in all things. By “all things” I mean the totality of existence past, present, and future. It takes a significant effort to reach that state because of the many distractions requiring our attention. But little by little the mind ascends from its earthly distractions till it reaches the mountain top and takes in the view from “heaven”. From that vantage point, all things are in service to the good. It is a breathtaking view. It is God’s view.

 

[Tiburon]

Nonsense, our belief is necessary in order to experience reality, because it is what we believe about the truth and reality that makes it known to us.

And you "cannot know the truth" without belief, because knowledge of the truth and reality requires belief occur before it is known to us.

And like all unbelievers you too disbelieve in how and why the truth and reality is known. All you are doing is projecting your unbelief by diminishing belief's role in making the truth and reality known.

We don't need to believe to experience reality. Belief and knowing are mental processes and occur after experience.

You say "And you "cannot know the truth" without belief" Strawman. No-one is saying you can.

I'm not diminishing belief's role. It is you who are attempting to extend the role of belief beyond it's defined boundaries.

 

[Tercon]

We don't need to believe to experience reality. Belief and knowing are mental processes and occur after experience.

How can you know the truth and experience reality without believing it first, when there is NO experiencing any truth and reality without belief silly?

You say "And you "cannot know the truth" without belief" Strawman. No-one is saying you can.

So belief is what makes the truth and reality known, because our physical senses tell us nothing the truth and reality.

I guess if you think you are just another animal, after awhile you start thinking and acting like one as well.

I'm not diminishing belief's role. It is you who are attempting to extend the role of belief beyond it's defined boundaries.

Not true. If belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known, then belief must occur in your mind before the truth and reality is known to you and not after.

 

[Tercon]

The way I understand the Pure Mind is a state of consciousness that sees the Good in all things.

If the only way and place that can know, experience and host "consciousness" and "Good" is a believing mind, then it is only in and with a believing mind that "consciousness" and "Good" can be known to exist and occur.

By “all things” I mean the totality of existence past, present, and future.

By "all things" I means the totality that can be known to exist and occur from eternity, because in eternity there is no past or future, but just a constant everlasting present tense and the reality of now.
Like reality consciousness can ONLY be known and experienced in the present tense. This I another reason to believe that reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind.

It takes a significant effort to reach that state because of the many distractions requiring our attention. But little by little the mind ascends from its earthly distractions till it reaches the mountain top and takes in the view from “heaven”. From that vantage point, all things are in service to the good. It is a breathtaking view. It is God’s view.

It's not meant to be hard at all, we are just supposed to believe what God tells us to believe in the way He tells us to believe and His Kingdom AKA His eternal reality is opened to us.

 

[Whateverman]

we are just supposed to believe what God tells us to believe in the way He tells us to believe

aka. your God gave us brains, but wants us to ignore what they say in order that we believe the way He tells us to...

That's some Smart Design™ right there.

Why not give us brains which believe the way He wants us to in the first place?

ps. you worship a god of your own making. It's no wonder that the Christians here reject what you say...

 

[Tercon]

aka. your God gave us brains, but wants us to ignore what they say in order that we believe the way He tells us to...

Actually God is Spirit, so He gave believers a believing mind. The rest are left outside of reality and in the abyss.

That's some Smart Design™ right there.

Why not give us brains which believe the way He wants us to in the first place?

He does, but some just think they are monkeys rather than the children of God.

ps. you worship a god of your own making. It's no wonder that the Christians here reject what you say...

All of God's children believe God is known the them in the way and place He has designed for believers to know Him. The rest are outside monkeying around in the abyss.

 

[docphin5]

If the only way and place that can know, experience and host "consciousness" and "Good" is a believing mind, then it is only in and with a believing mind that "consciousness" and "Good" can be known to exist and occur.

You have this knack for being verbose, —expressing an idea in too many words which gets you into trouble. It seems the more words you use the less precise you become. For example, your idea can be expressed simply as edited above.

By "all things" I means the totality that can be known to exist and occur from eternity, because in eternity there is no past or future, but just a constant everlasting present tense and the reality of now.

True

Like reality consciousness can ONLY be known and experienced in the present tense.

The idea expressed concisely as edited above. The other words make it ambiguous.

This I another reason to believe that reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind.

This goes without saying. Where else would any of us know reality except in a mind? Although, the addition of the qualifier “believing” to “mind” makes your meaning ambiguous.

Is a “believing mind” one that believes as you do or is it a mind that can believe something as opposed to someone in a coma with a mind but unable to believe anything? See my point? You use too many words, then you end up stepping on your own feet.

It's not meant to be hard at all, we are just supposed to believe what God tells us to believe in the way He tells us to believe and His Kingdom AKA His eternal reality is opened to us.

I think it is a little more difficult than that, but in general, you are correct, God makes himself known to those who are like him, pious people who live virtuous lives. He draws them to himself and discloses Himself to them.

Therefore, someone who does not value virtue will never know God. It cannot be shown to them because their mind is closed off to him.

 

[Tercon]

You have this knack for being verbose, —expressing an idea in too many words which gets you into trouble. It seems the more words you use the less precise you become. For example, your idea can be expressed simply as edited above.

Strawman and projection. Actually it is your take on this that is more ambiguous and less concise than mine. Since it isn't just any kind of “mind” that makes a person conscious of the truth, reality or the “good”, but it is ONLY in and with a 'believing mind' that can do that.

True
The idea expressed concisely as edited above. The other words make it ambiguous.

Wrong and another strawman and projection. Yours is more ambiguous and less concise than mine. Actually if reality like consciousness can ONLY be known and experienced in and with the a believing mind, then like conscious reality too can only be known and experienced in the present tense as well.

This goes without saying. Where else would any of us know reality except in a mind? Although, the addition of the qualifier “believing” to “mind” makes your meaning ambiguous.

How can the qualifier “believing” make the word “mind” more ambiguous and less concise than 'believing mind', when “believing” is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you? As if you are not referring to how and why the truth and reality is known to us in this discussion please let me known.

Is a “believing mind” one that believes as you do or is it a mind that can believe something as opposed to someone in a coma with a mind but unable to believe anything? See my point? You use too many words, then you end up stepping on your own feet.

Strawman. I am not referring to “someone in a coma with a mind but unable to believe anything” or a unbeliever, that's why 'believing mind' is less ambiguous and more concise than just “mind”.
Also, it would seem that it isn't just people who self identify as unbelievers that don't know God. But it is also some people who self identify as believers that don't seem to know how and why the truth and reality of God is known to them either.

I think it is a little more difficult than that, but in general, you are correct, God makes himself known to those who are like him, pious people who live virtuous lives. He draws them to himself and discloses Himself to them.
Therefore, someone who does not value virtue will never know God. It cannot be shown to them because their mind is closed off to him.

No it isn't. And what you are suggesting is unbiblical. We don't and can't become “pious people who live virtuous lives” until after salvation and not before. Righteousness comes after we believe and not before, because it is the believing in what His Spirit of truth tells us that makes man 'born from above'.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30-31)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Here is a link to 286 more verses saying how and why God is known to believers. God commands, recommends and commends belief as the only way and means that God administers His salvation and all of His gifts to believers.

 

[docphin5]

No it isn't. And what you are suggesting is unbiblical. We don't and can't become “pious people who live virtuous lives” until after salvation and not before.

It is a sad day when the Bible is used, as you do, to tell people to hold off on thinking positive of God and on choosing virtue over vice, until AFTER they are saved.

It is dumb.

Wouldn’t it be better from a practical standpoint to encourage people to be good or think positively of God before they know what salvation is?

Oohhh, but “the Bible says” otherwise, according to you. “It cannot be done.”

So many things the Bible allegedly says, that make no sense.

Righteousness comes after we believe and not before, because it is the believing in what His Spirit of truth tells us that makes man 'born from above'.

 

[Tiburon]

How can you know the truth and experience reality without believing it first, when there is NO experiencing any truth and reality without belief silly?



So belief is what makes the truth and reality known, because our physical senses tell us nothing the truth and reality.

I guess if you think you are just another animal, after awhile you start thinking and acting like one as well.



Not true. If belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known, then belief must occur in your mind before the truth and reality is known to you and not after.

I can experience reality without believing it.
There is nothing to say in what order things happen. I can believe something before I experience it in reality. I can believe something and never experience it in reality. I can experience reality and still disbelieve my experience.
What does it mean to 'know' something?

 

[Tercon]

I can experience reality without believing it.

No you can't. That's why belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you.

There is nothing to say in what order things happen.

Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement; 'belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known'? It means that belief must occur in reality before the truth and reality is made known to you, because without belief the truth and reality is unknowable to you. Do you understand that?

I can believe something before I experience it in reality.

Just what are you believing to exist in reality and not knowing or experiencing "it in reality"?

I can believe something and never experience it in reality.

Just what are you believing to exist in reality and never experiencing "it in reality".

I can experience reality and still disbelieve my experience.

What are you experiencing in reality "and still disbelieving you are experiencing it silly?

What does it mean to 'know' something?

To know something in reality is to believe it in reality, because without a belief in reality there is NO knowing the truth or reality.

 

[Tercon]

It is a sad day when the Bible is used, as you do, to tell people to hold off on thinking positive of God and on choosing virtue over vice, until AFTER they are saved.

Strawman. It is sad day when the Bible is used, as you do, to tell people to hold off on believing what God said about His ONLY mode by which He uses to make Himself known to everyone believing. And no-one can be saved until they believe in what Christ has done for everyone at the cross. He not only died for believers, but he also was the first to believe and die on their behalf as well. And that's what takes every unbeliever and makes them a believer. It isn't anything we do, but it is all and everything God does in and for us to make Him known in and to us.

It is dumb.
Wouldn’t it be better from a practical standpoint to encourage people to be good or think positively of God before they know what salvation is?

You can't be good or righteous before you know God silly, when it is ONLY God that knows how to be good and righteous.

There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one. (Romans 3:11-12)

Oohhh, but “the Bible says” otherwise, according to you. “It cannot be done.”

So many things the Bible allegedly says, that make no sense.

Strawman. As if God is the truth and reality, then nothing good can 'be done' without God and His ordained mode of making people righteous.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement; 'belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known'? It means that belief must occur in reality before the truth and reality is made known to you, because without belief the truth and reality is unknowable to you. Do you understand that?

I understand that you agree with me that not all belief is necessary for knowledge. You agree that knowledge requires only belief in that which is real, yet you still cannot show that God is any more real than leprechauns. Do you understand what 'sufficient' means in the statement: "Belief is not sufficient for knowledge"?

 

[Tercon]

I understand that you agree with me that not all belief is necessary for knowledge.

Strawman. Belief is necessary 100% of the time in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you silly. And the only "knowledge" that can relate to the truth and reality is 'belief knowledge', because outside of belief and a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable.

You agree that knowledge requires only belief in that which is real, yet you still cannot show that God is any more real than leprechauns.

Strawman and projection of your unbelief. I believe in God, so I don't see God and leprechauns the same as you silly.
I have shown that the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and with a believing mind. So, if it is ONLY in and with a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur, then reality must be a believing mind. Why? Because it cannot be known to exist or occur anywhere else but in and with a believing mind. So, the truth and reality must be the product of God's believing mind.

Do you understand what 'sufficient' means in the statement: "Belief is not sufficient for knowledge"?

Strawman and projection. Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known to exist and occur'? It means that your opinion as to belief's necessity and sufficiency is irrelevant, because belief must occur in reality before the truth and reality is made known to you. All you are doing is projecting your unbelief and conflating belief and unbelief in order to keep the truth and reality hidden from yourself.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Strawman. Belief is necessary 100% of the time in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you silly. And the only "knowledge" that can relate to the truth and reality is 'belief knowledge', because outside of belief and a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable.

Do you then think that belief in leprechauns is necessary? No, you don't. So you agree with me that not all belief is necessary.

Strawman and projection of your unbelief. I believe in God, so I don't see God and leprechauns the same as you silly.

I didn't say that you see them as the same. I said you haven't been able to show that they are different.

Strawman and projection.

No, it was a question. And you just failed to answer. Again.

Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known to exist and occur'?

That's literally what I just answered in the post you were replying to. Please try harder to follow the conversation.

 

[Tercon]

Do you then think that belief in leprechauns is necessary? No, you don't. So you agree with me that not all belief is necessary.

Strawman, who believes in leprechauns silly?

I didn't say that you see them as the same. I said you haven't been able to show that they are different.

Sure I have. The truth and reality absolutely exists and represents God's believing mind, because I have logically connected the truth and reality to God's believing mind.

No, it was a question. And you just failed to answer. Again.
That's literally what I just answered in the post you were replying to. Please try harder to follow the conversation.

No you didn't. All you did was show how your unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknown to you silly.

Again, do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known to exist and occur'?

 

[Tetsugaku]

Strawman, who believes in leprechauns silly?

Not you. So you agree with me that NOT ALL belief is necessary.

Sure I have. The truth and reality absolutely exists and represents God's believing mind, because I have logically connected the truth and reality to God's believing mind.

No you haven't. Mere assertions are not logical connections.

No you didn't. All you did was show how your unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknown to you silly. Again, do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known to exist and occur'?

Asked and answered. Please try harder to follow what's being said to you.

 

[Tercon]

Not you. So you agree with me that NOT ALL belief is necessary.

Strawman. I don't believe in leprechauns and I believe in God, so how are they the same silly?

No you haven't. Mere assertions are not logical connections.

Stating a logical truth that you cannot refute is a sound and valid argument.

Asked and answered. Please try harder to follow what's being said to you.
I understand that you agree with me that not all belief is necessary for knowledge.

You're delusional.

You agree that knowledge requires only belief in that which is real,

All beliefs in reality are real, because "false beliefs" and unbelief are not beliefs in reality nor are they real beliefs.

yet you still cannot show that God is any more real than leprechauns.

Leprechauns are not shown how they are known to exist in the same way and means by which the truth and reality are shown and known to exist and occur like God is. And here is literally hundred of Bible verses showing that God is known and shown to exist and occur the same way the truth and reality is shown and know to exist and occur.

Do you understand what 'sufficient' means in the statement: "Belief is not sufficient for knowledge"?

Do you know what necessary means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary and must occur before the truth and reality is known to you'? It means your unbelief of belief's sufficiency is enough to make the truth and reality unknown to you. Do you understand this?

 

[Tetsugaku]

Strawman. I don't believe in leprechauns and I believe in God, so how are they the same silly?

I didn't say they were the same. I said you agree with me that not all beliefs are necessary.

Stating a logical truth that you cannot refute is a sound and valid argument.

A mere statement isn't even an argument so it cannot be either valid or sound.

You're delusional.

Insults don't help your case. Again, you agree with me that not all beliefs are necessary.

All beliefs in reality are real...

By definition, but not all beliefs are beliefs in reality. Which is why you agree with me that not all beliefs are necessary. You agree that we should only believe things that are true and real - and you have not shown God's existence to be any more true or real than leprechauns.

Leprechauns are not shown how they are known to exist in the same way and means by which the truth and reality are shown and known to exist and occur like God is. And here is literally hundred of Bible verses showing that God is known and shown to exist and occur the same way the truth and reality is shown and know to exist and occur.

And here are over three thousand quotes from Tolkien about hobbits and elves. Quoting something is easy, but it doesn't show it to be true.

Do you know what necessary means...

Asked and answered. And you completely ignored my question.

 

[Whatsisface]

All of God's children believe God is known the them in the way and place He has designed for believers to know Him. The rest are outside monkeying around in the abyss.

But all of God's children don't agree with you that reality is located in God's mind.